Thread: Is timber a viable option for the woodworking hobbyist?

Found the posts very interesting... as w/working hobby finatic ... this interested me... just a few mentions... YES Bunnings here SHOCKING wood... warped & absolutely horrific...
I scource wood from all avenues...
Not long ago visited town up North... the local tip put wood into a separate section for anyone wanting to use it ... ie any small jobs, even down to being available for taking camping...protecting our natural resorces.

My gripe is the cost of sanding disc papers... as I use substantial quantity of wood... need mega amounts of sanding ... if the timber was better quality I wouldn't have too.

Few years ago...purchased pack 1.5m x70mmx19mm ... from bulk supplier... rather annoyed how many lengths had mould on them.. annoying as they were packed into & under top showing lengths... didn't get to them until I'd used quite a few of the pack already....
Only once I actally calculated how much money I save by using the thicknesser & dressing my own timber was making jarrah gate... as I already had old floorboards... given to us years ago... swapped making a bread-cupboard... in pine for trailer load of jarrah floor board... that would have just been dumped in tip... Gate cost $38 dollars for stainless steel screw's, hinges & latch... new jarrah gate was over $360.... my quality certainly over 200% better quality.

The thicknesser is an essential tool for anyone wanting to recycle & save costs... second picture wood destined for tip... road verge 1/2 hour... dressed beautiful timber
Noted someone mentioned buying timber as group... great idea.. if you could get discounted timber I'd buy more.. but accessing groups who use similar wood product.. then causes more nightmares...

The one point I'd like to stress is... we choose to be a hobby woodworker... making our own furniture as its stronger...unique designs.. our own creations.. made to our standards & satisfaction.
Have been commisioned to do some pieces... charge double the price of timber ... then give a set price for construction of various pieces...
when asked why double price of timber... amount of time taken to find/quality control.... one friend who bought timber around, I looked at and then gave him half back & explaining how warped...split & cracked wood doesnt make it into my furniture (if I spend my time to chose timber & get twice the amount of wood, then I make two "units"... making one I might as well make two.....customer can then chose which unit they want... as I have free hand in design it gives the customer a choice. ) Must also add, once a customer couldn't deside which one he liked so bought both.. that one surprised me.!!

Sneaky & cheeky...but works for me.....

Interested in the bulk buying power idea... but how lazy of me ... not interested in organizing it.. too busy... we pay for what we're prepared to.. if its convenient, advantageous & saves time ... I'll pay... other wise I will find something more affordable...

Enjoyed this thread....
Cheers Kekemo

I don't want to sound pushy but why is it no-one has responded about the SUPER-DUPER PLY?
Is it because 'real woodies' don't use ply?
or garym and I are the only people who think it is important?
or I am being ignored because it has been discussed many times before and I haven't done my homework?

BTW - These forums are killing me.....I get so wrapped in the discussions my head hurts. Not to mention the damage it is causing my social life and the "where have you been all this time" questions from TLOML. I would like to thank those learned contributors who share their knowledge and more importantly take the time to get involved. We mere novices DO APPRECIATE IT!!!!!

Originally Posted by hobbytrees

I can see that lumber is cheapper in the us , i can also see that you can buy a house for $30 000

Oh dear PLEASE don't use that analogy, Australian houses are overpriced by any criteria you wish to use, and also the US house prices are, of course, post GFC.

Originally Posted by hobbytrees

if you want to cut down some trees a man with a chain saw experience will cost you somewere in the $500 a day

Damn! I was in the wrong business then! all those years at Uni - what a waste - all I needed was a blasted chain saw!

Hmmmm, that was legal tree cutting wasn't it?

Originally Posted by Ken Darvell

I don't want to sound pushy but why is it no-one has responded about the SUPER-DUPER PLY?

It is a bit strange that there doesn't seem to be much on ply generally on the forum.

I would dearly love to use this material on my second CNC machine (the first used MDF).

I think that this kind of ply COULD POSSIBLY be sourced at such specialty stores as Mr Ply & Wood. They have a great web site:

Plywood suppliers

the only thing missing is pricing.

When I see that I always think of a skit in some movie or another whereby a chap goes up to an aristocratic looking sort of chap and asks him the price of an item to which the aristocratic chap replies: "If you need to know the price, sir, you can't afford it".

Ok, I am already tagged as a cynic.... I can wear it.

Originally Posted by garym

At the end of of the article the Ikea rep indicates that prices will come down when more items are manufactured locally, if he had read this thread he might have altered that to say "except for items made of wood".....


Edit: Oh, and I am obviously playing the part of Tricky Dicky here.... ;-)

I can just hear it now --- " Now that our products are made in Australia, with the higher wages etc...blah blah blah... we have had to raise our prices to reflect this. "

HI, I am home hoppies as cabinet maker, for making the new market stalls designs by the plywood timber, new stalls designing plans as suitable for car sedan or station wagon or Van for transport the market stalls to the markets & shows & festivals, I have not made stalls for other market stall holders customers yet, only for ourself.

I have used the BSB1088 Marine plywood 12mm thickness, it was an excellent quanitly plywood than pine plywood or maple softwood plywood are no good for the market stalls, because it not weather proof, cannot paint them, because too rough surfaces, bended, chips splits at the edges when cuts. I had pine plywood previous made the stall's frontage bench, it was bent, and wood putty came off, frame came off, it lasted over 6 months, then I threw this away, because used wrong glue, wrong pine plywood 9mm. So I getting more experience to made better plywood and glue and filler are the most important.
BSB 1088 marine plywood are the best suit for the new market stall's bench, shelves, roof top, can spray paint or paint by water based paint.
It very expensive to buying marine plywoods cost around $180.00 for one sheets from other hardwares to plywood companies, but I bought for $120 each sheets. We have been used more than 4 sheets for one market stall. I have sanding all around the edges to smooth edges to stop the chips splits off when moving or transporting the stall.
DO you know about the best plywood suit for market stalls, IS I am choose correct plywood material, marine plywood for boat maker, but we want the strong and good quatlity plywood.
I used water base colour paint, maybe good enough because it may scatches from moving the stalls all the time, then it can be touch up paints later.
If I use the high gloss paint sprays, it may scratches later and cannot paint touch up.
Filled the holes from screw, so I used the boat's fibre special two mixers filler (pink colour after mixing by red stuff), after sanding surfaces, very strong, and nice smooth, better than wood putty or house wall white putty filler. This boat fibre filler putty are very dry quickly after 2 to 4 mins time, then turn to hard, I have to throw this away and making new one each time, because I was too slow to filling the holes.
It's already cost me over $1100.00 just the materials, and stainsteel door long edges, still not finishes as yet, still need another 6 more bsb1088 plywood sheets for the roofing and 3rd new stall may add another $1100.00 soon, will completed by Jan. Lot of work to be doned.
If I use the cheapest pine plywood, timber fillers, white glue, price would be half of this, but don't last long, cheap stall will falling peices from moving the stalls all the time.
This designed may Suit for the NEW MARKET STALL HOLDERS needs as benches, table, etc.

BEWARE, Look for BSB 1088 or ASA 1088 stamped on the plywood, must be very fine hardwood plywood sheets.
Some looks same, colour, but look for marks if you see like maple marks, mean it cheap one, don't buy this, unless to see very fine hardwood surfaces, must be red stamped.
Case 1
Blacktown Plywood company has try to cheating me to pushing me to buy the 3 x wrong plywood sheets, it was nearly to processing cutting sheets. I am glad their table saw machine has not start power on, broken, then we forget this, then I was done more researching. I bought the real marine plywood from Smithfield AAA plywood company, it was correct material. I spoken to the guy, he know Blacktown company got problem, guy left that company and work for smithfield, that plywood was made from Pine, not hardwood. Lucky I did not buy pine wrong plywood.

Case 2
Wentworth Fall hardware, was mistaken, I made mistaken bought wrong plywood just one sheet was look same colour, and noticed me after I cutting this sheets, it chips comes off and rough edges, and weaken. I threw this away, no good. I went back to them and complaint this morning, no good plywood.
Remember it was not fine sheets as maple marks, and stamped must be BSB 1088 on the top corner sheets. I made ordered 6 x sheets frtom them, they don't have BSB 1088 in their stock at the moment, so we get them next week. I warn them to watch out for stamped BSB 1088 or take them back to supplier.

Bunnings don't have them, I looked at Penrith, St mary, everywhere, none them in their stock and unable to ordering them for you.
Try to go to some hardware store may have them, but they may charge you over $180 each, try to negotiable them price should be $120 to $150 max.
MUST BE STAMPED BSB 1088 on the plywood or don;t take them, otherwise it will be weaken, edges comes off, splits, bent. Suit for market stalls custom build.

Thanks for that story ParkleaMarkets, it all sounded strangely familiar to me.

I can report that Bunnings at Mittagong DOES stock marine ply - which totally surprised me as it was never stocked at my three Sydney Bunnings stores, Ashfield, Botany, and Rockdale (which I think is supposed to be the biggest or at least one of the biggest).

To my untrained eye it did not look very quality and had quite a rough finish to the touch. I can't tell you the price other than it was so high my mind has blocked it out as it is wont to do when I experience something nasty and unpleasant.

Originally Posted by garym

And stored that way in places like Bunnings - NOTHING gets up my nose more.



I could not disagree more. I will never agree that punishing the innocent to alter the behaviour of the guilty is a viable approach to anything. All that does it put the product into the hands of the wealthy and out of reach of the less fortunate.



I agree with that, just not the method of doing it.

Unfortunately, to a less or greater extent, we are all guilty. In some countries, were timber is a rarity, the same is treated with almost reverence. Here we take for granted. You say yourself, you are not talking about exotics, you are refering to the "common" species. Keep in mind they were all common once. Admittedly, with ongoing plantation management, some species will be able to fight off the exotic tag for some time into the future, but your guess is as good as mine as to how long that will be. Price reduction at production level, sure as hell, won't help. The respect shown to exotics is very much due to their cost. Therefore waste is minimised and carefull selection and treatment of the product becomes the norm. Even if a person is unaware of the specie being an exotic, the price he had to pay still determins his actions. To say you would never agree to punishing the innocent to alter the guilty is, I think, a little idealistic. In as much as all reforms, to some extent, do exactly that. There are no innocents here. As users of a finite product we must be prepaired to stand accountable for our actions. We must be prepaired to broarden our perspective. Barrow- pushing is an interesting undertaking.... The heavier the barrow becomes, the more difficult it is to lift your head and have a look around.
Retailers, Im sure you well know, work on set margins. Any price reduction offered by them is usually farmed back to their supplier and so on down the chain. Until, like so many other industries, it comes to rest squarely at the feet of the grower or manufacturer.
This is one of the reasons many countries have to subsidise their producers. So either way, you as a consumer pick up the tab.
America, in my opinion, is not a particularly good yard stick. They are a "rush on" society
with a poor record when it comes to longterm marketing and sustainability. Sometimes it is better to look beyond the loud, chest beating, banner waving radicals and have a look at what the quiet, more serene are up to.
Cheers and thanks for the debate

I've been reading this thread since it started it's not my usual practice to reposnd to this sort of thing but my thoughts run along the following lines:

Woodworking is a viable hobby for almost anyone. It is scalable from small carving pieces and boxes through to grand staircases and reproduction Georgian bureaus. You can make things and get enjoyment with as little as a few hand tools and a lumpof discarded firewood.

Hobbies cost money, folks who go fishing buy boats, fuel rods, lures even seaside homes in pursuit of their hobby. These people would never recover their costs, in terms of the value of the fish they catch; instead they do what they do for enjoyment. Hobby woodworking is the same.

Hardware stores are the convenience stores of the woodworking world. They charge what they charge because they can. Railing against their prices range and quality is analagous to complaining about the price, range and quality of cream at the corner shop. It's going to be dearer with fewer choices because you are paying the price of convenience.

It takes time, effort and ingenuity to gain the ability to consistently make larger pieces cost effectively. There is no innate entitlement for affordability. It's not logical to assume that it will be possible to make furniture inexpensively without extensive experience. Ive spent two thirds of my life accumulating tools, a workshop and a little knowledge. I still consider myself a student of woodworking; it would often be cheaper to buy what I make elsewhere.

To maximise affordability the hobbyist is going to have to set themselves up over time. This setup often includes: purchasing tools and machinery selectively, buying a suitable vehicle, establishing a relationship with suppliers and developing an understanding of sources for materials.


Some ways in which hobbyists can make obtaining timber more cost-effective include:

• Salvaging timber (there are many sources
• Developing a good relationship with a supplier
• being able to pick the timber up yurself
• being able to dimension the timber yourself
• storing and drying your own timber
• buying in bulk
• milling your own timber

<O</OItems 1 to 5 are at the more immediately obvious end. Six is achievable with cooperation and in certain situations seven can be more straight-foward than at first imagined (e.g. cutting a turning blank from a dead apple tree).

If folks find themselves saying, "I can't do that because..." then I'd suggest it is the "because" that needs to be addressed.

The other option is to scale whatever projects are planned to more effectively meet the current level of preparedness.


<O</OHoraldic <O</O

Garry, you will find that 290 wide pine stock is getting hard to get now days in Oz as they dont like waiting that long for it too grow, to get a clear 290 width the tree would be near 1m in dia... simply not good economics in todays fast need to make corparate buck world!
Did you get the price on "merch grade"?

Originally Posted by Harry72

Garry, you will find that 290 wide pine stock is getting hard to get now days in Oz as they dont like waiting that long for it too grow, to get a clear 290 width the tree would be near 1m in dia... simply not good economics in todays fast need to make corparate buck world!
Did you get the price on "merch grade"?

The only reason I asked for 290 was so I could compare apples with apples (or as near to as I could) with your price. But that's a very good point, whilst a handy width it's not strictly necessary - I will ask for another quote on a more "common" width. Hmmm, I suppose the trick would be to ask for quotes from say 45 upwards. I don't mind laminating and jointing if necessary,and if 290 is absolutely necessary it's no big deal to but the odd board. It will be interesting if there is some optimal width, although I suppose the narrower it is the more "common" it will be, unless then knots become a problem.

Dear me I didn't think to ask for a grade , I'm so used to pine being just structural or non-structural. I had a look at some loose boards they had and they seemed pretty good, it certainly looked better than "utility" grade.

It is, of course, dressed all round.

Hey guys...

Figured I could help with some input on this question.... since I am a hobby woodworker and instrument builder in the good 'ole USA.....

First... yes... you can in fact buy retail 6 foot 2x4's for a little over $3.00 right now.... The wood is either spruce or pine - so soft, coniferous wood....

Now... A comment about what you get.... Trash.

Our large scale full production saw mills that process this stuff are giant, 24-7 operations... They cut millions of feet a year... and they cut EVERYTHING that may have had leaves on it at some point or another.... Those cheap 2x4's will frequently show bark on one side and the center of the pith on the other side - in the 2" direction.... so we are talking a tree that was no more than maybe 4 or 5" diameter..... and the 1" thick stuff is even worse....

Then... This cheap stuff are full of knots, branch outs, twist, pitch pockets, etc.... You occasionally see a good one that made it into the stack by mistake - but those typically have 4" of runout in 6" - so your board splits in half when you put it into structural use....

They sell this stuff cheap to get rid of them - and to keep the mill running full production...

Those same stores will typically sell 3 different grades of those 2x4's - with the best ones they sell probably falling into what you would normally call a #2 or better... Those cost $4-$5.00 each.

Hardwoods are considerably more expensive at these places.... and the hardwoods aren't the best stuff.... Very limited sizes and species - maybe only Oak and poplar....

You want to talk highway robbery.... Try buying Australian timber here in the USA....

Thanks

Originally Posted by truckjohn

Hey guys...

Figured I could help with some input on this question.... since I am a hobby woodworker and instrument builder in the good 'ole USA.....

First... yes... you can in fact buy retail 6 foot 2x4's for a little over $3.00 right now.... The wood is either spruce or pine - so soft, coniferous wood....

Now... A comment about what you get.... Trash.

Our large scale full production saw mills that process this stuff are giant, 24-7 operations... They cut millions of feet a year... and they cut EVERYTHING that may have had leaves on it at some point or another.... Those cheap 2x4's will frequently show bark on one side and the center of the pith on the other side - in the 2" direction.... so we are talking a tree that was no more than maybe 4 or 5" diameter..... and the 1" thick stuff is even worse....

Then... This cheap stuff are full of knots, branch outs, twist, pitch pockets, etc.... You occasionally see a good one that made it into the stack by mistake - but those typically have 4" of runout in 6" - so your board splits in half when you put it into structural use....

They sell this stuff cheap to get rid of them - and to keep the mill running full production...

Those same stores will typically sell 3 different grades of those 2x4's - with the best ones they sell probably falling into what you would normally call a #2 or better... Those cost $4-$5.00 each.

Hardwoods are considerably more expensive at these places.... and the hardwoods aren't the best stuff.... Very limited sizes and species - maybe only Oak and poplar....

You want to talk highway robbery.... Try buying Australian timber here in the USA....

Thanks

Thanks for that truckjohn, very useful information, it does at least indicate that the quality, if not the price, is similar to our own.

If you have time, and you could let me know what you typically DO use, and roughly how much the lumber costs you I would appreciate it.

Sorry Gary I forgot to say... probably 3 full sized tv cabinets with some spare from a 290/19x3m 50pc pack, cabs this sized made here in australia would be between $1500~2000 retail.
Its 4 or so years ago now so prices would have gone up, the merchant grade is whats left after good stuff is taken out, but remember they look for clear long lenghts so the stuff left over has a lot of knots and end splits.
Being a crafty hobby we work around this problem, 1 plank may end up as 3 or 4 bits say 1200/90mm of clear wood(good for stiles and rails or frame work)and some short wider pieces that can be used for panel work... after all its pine it will have knots in it everyone knows that!

The great birch ply debate, the answer is simple the high quality ply you see in that magazine is mega expensive so its little used here.
There are quality plys about but they are mainly made for the architectural industry, most of us use common grades like BC still does the job just dont look as pretty.
And yes most here on this forum dont use ply for furniture.