Thread: 5 or 5 1/2

Yes, the LNs are a development from the post-1911 Bed Rock Stanleys. Production of these was never restarted by Stanley after the second world war and 50 years later LN has made a number of small improvements to the original Stanley design.

It's important to distinguish the pre and post-1911 Bed Rocks. The former had rounded sides and used screws rather than pins to secure the frog. They are usually priced considerably lower. The post-1911 planes usually track closely to the LN prices. Currently, the average price of Bed Rock 604s would be around $300 (I've been following a few sales!) and LN No. 4s are $380 from their Australian site or $300 on their US site.

Patrick Leach, of "Patricks Blood and Gore" fame argues that the Bed Rock planes are "over-hyped" and there are some who agree with him. I certainly don't think that they are four times "better" than a standard "Bailey" plane of the same era, which is what the price differential would suggest.

However, in order to get a Bailey type plane to perform as well as a good Bed Rock you need to firstly get hold of one of the better Bailey type planes. Leaving out arguments about "low knob" and "high knob", most would agree the better era "for user" planes is from about 1907 to 1933.

These planes were less expensive than the Bed Rock series when they were new and consequently were often treated more as a more utillitarian object right from that initial purchase. They also went through a period where they were of very low value. Hence, the type 10 to type 16 planes are, on average, in worse condition than Bed Rocks. Sure, good examples of type 10 to 16 are available, but you sort through a lot of overpriced poorly maintained and increasingly, inexpertly restored planes to get them.

Once a purchase has been made a plane may then have to be cleaned up, any damaged parts repaired or replaced and tuned. Replacement parts can be expensive and the tuning process can take quite a bit of time.

The whole value equation depends upon how an individual values their time. Many people don't enjoy the process of hunting out a used plane, fettling and/or restoring it. Others have limited free time and prefer to spend it woodworking. I spent the lion's share of a weekend cleaning up and tuning the last stanley plane I bought and then several small stints over a couple of weeks as I refinished the woodwork

I have old and new planes. I enjoy my new planes for the way they simply do their job so well each time I pick them up and the design and engineering that has gone into them. I also really enjoy my old planes, they are not so efficient as the new ones but there is a lot of history behind them with links back to my father and grandfather.

I don't think the Lie Nielsen planes are overpriced. They consistently work well right out of the box. Even if I priced my labour on each of my Stanleys as cheap as $10 an hour I could easily have bought a Lie Nielsen instead. If you include the purchase price of the second hand plane and and make an allowance for the difference in time it takes to hunt about at auctions, the internet and markets rather than simply buy a plane from LN or Veritas, it makes the LN and Veritas products look to be good value for money to me.

cheers

Horaldic

In addition ..

You cannot turn a Stanley - Bedrock (actually it is Bed Rock) or otherwise - into a Lie Nielsen. No matter how hard you try.

You could change the blade .. but don't forget the LN blade is thick, and thicker than the thickest aftermarket blade (from LN, LV, Hock, etc) that fits a Stanley. Thicker equals less flex and less chatter.

You might be able to tighten up the adjuster-blade connection to reduce backlash .... but there is the danger than the cast iron connector on the Stanley will break. So you put up with more backlash and less precision on the Stanley.

You would need to do a lot of fettling to achieve the fine tolerances between parts - such as between frog and base - on a Stanley that come this way on the LN.

And you cannot change the material with which the body is built - fragile grey iron on the Stanley and unbreakable ductile iron on the LN. Try dropping a Stanley and a LN plane from a height of 3 feet (the top of your bench) onto a concrete floor ...

You can pick up unfettled Stanley planes most places, and some are quite cheap because there are a lot of them around - of different vintages and different states of repair and different value ... for the inexperienced it is a case of Buyer Beware (having said that, many of these planes really do not need much work to work .. but the smoothers need work to work well). Just keep in mind that the Stanleys of Olde are no longer being produced. If they were their manufacturing costs would necessitate a whole new pricing structure ... just look at the prices of the New Stanley planes - not far off the LN and LV, and not nearly at the quality level. Now LN and LV planes are made in small quantities ... the cost-per-plane is high, and the profit margin for the layout of machinery required is low. I think the costs of these planes is pretty reasonable - that does not mean that they are affordable, just reasonable for what they are.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the info guys - very interesting. I've not had the pleasure of actually seeing a live bedrock or LN yet, I'd be very interested to do so given the above comments.

Derek made me look at my planes -- it actually is two words, BED ROCK (mine are all cap letters) I never noticed that.

As also has been said the LN's out-of-the-box perform perfectly, I usually give a secondary bevel polish but the planes are excellent quality throughout that you would have to spend hundreds $$ more to get a finer tool. By contrast old Stanleys usually require many hours work.
With that said one should keep in mind over the years there has been lots & lots of exquisite furniture made using Bailey style (and of course wooden) planes.

I use 4's and 5's every day at school. My 5 1/2 is used as a shooting plane at home. I use the 6 for planing longer stock, maybe sometimes the 7. The 4 /2 gets little use. A 3 is used for small fine work, I don't get on with my Record 9 1/2. My QS 62 is great with it's 3 blades. My bench planes have replacement IBC, Quangsheng and Smoothcut blades with QS chipbreakers, sharpened on a Tormek and a range of diamond stones to 1200 then an 8000 ceramic stone followed by green or gold compound on leather strops.

Originally Posted by Horaldic

Currently, the average price of Bed Rock 604s would be around $300 (I've been following a few sales!) and LN No. 4s are $380 from their Australian site or $300 on their US site.

cheers

Horaldic

Geez I would never have thought $300 for a 604 ... maybe it is just the state of the planes that I choose to go after

Here's one at $225 - and it's a retail site.
New Listings

Paul McGee

Originally Posted by derekcohen

In addition ..

And you cannot change the material with which the body is built - fragile grey iron on the Stanley and unbreakable ductile iron on the LN.

Try dropping a Stanley and a LN plane from a height of 3 feet (the top of your bench) onto a concrete floor ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

NOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo!!!! Don't!!!!

Derek - Shame. Into the naughty corner.

Also to be factored in - depending on the individual - is the amount of learning you experience in bringing an old plane back into good working condition. Even your failures, setbacks and mistakes are all positive additions to your knowledge that may have an additional positive impact later down the road when you may not expect it.

Plus - it's fun

Cheers,
Paul McGee

Hi Paul

While I agree that learning to fettle a plane is a vital part of the learning process, it also pays to know something when you start doing so, and to choose your victims carefully.

Here is a story of my shame ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Comment...sStanley3.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, I reckon all of us that have been around for a while have similar stories of tools butchered through ignorance. But as an old bloke once said to me, "The man who never made a mistake, never made anything..."

So I take heart when my conscience nags me.
Cheers,

I've made my share (or more than my share) of mistakes with old planes, for the most part buying them sight unseen and finding the work involved with a particular plane just wouldn't be worth the effort.
If you aren't lucky enough to live within reasonable distance of a class or club of true hand tool aficionados the next best thing is reading, reading, reading -- Derek has been no small part of my education along with Frank Klaus, Tage Frid, David Charlesworth, Jim Kingshott, James Krenov, and David Finck just to name a few. What is true about hand tools is that the more you learn the more there is to learn.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hi Paul

While I agree that learning to fettle a plane is a vital part of the learning process, it also pays to know something when you start doing so, and to choose your victims carefully.

Here is a story of my shame ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Comment...sStanley3.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Choose your victims absolutely ... there is plenty to buy cheaply on the market. Leave the family treasures until you feel more confident.

On the other hand - you *never* know it all, and you have to start sometime.

Case in point - Derek and his #3. Years down the track ... thicker blades available ... to install one you need to file the mouth open
... the circle is complete

Paul McGee