Thread: Advice on identifying and restoring Disston saw

Okies dokes, I've taken the plunge and bought a full set of Bahco files from LV. Unfortunately it will take a few weeks to arrive as I couldn't justify the US$50 for expedited shipping.

So I just have to wait

I'll get on to the handle now and refinish that. A new challenge awaits!

I'll report back once the handle is done, and again when I attempt my first sharpening

Regards
Adam

And the addiction begins.


Cheers Matt.

Remember, I blame ALL of you

Good morning gentlemen

While I wait for the files to arrive, I've decided to start stripping the handle. Didn't get much done as it was very cold last night in the shed (note to self - get a wood heater in there!).

It came off very easily around where the handle is gripped, but I'll need to get some stripper (hang on! the paint variety!! ) to clean the rest off. I'm assuming it's shellac.

Can you identify the wood from this photo?

handle.jpg

Regards Adam

Originally Posted by Stratman

....Can you identify the wood from this photo?.....

Nope.

It's a mug's game id'ng any wood from a picture, Adam, however, we can take some guesses. I'm very confident it's not Beech, which was the wood used on post-1940 models. It doesn't look quite like the Applewood I know, but all woods are highly variable, and that's the most likely culprit for a pre-1940 saw. I don't know if the Canadian branch stopped using Apple at the same time as the Philadelphia branch, but there's a fair chance they did (their handles may well have come from the parent company!?) They certainly did use Applewood on their saws originally, because I have a Canadian D8 and it has an Apple handle.

If the finish is Shellac, all you need to strip it off is Metho. Some fine steel wool and about 50 mls of metho will do the job and not damage the original wood. If it's a lacquer, you will need something a bit more potent...

Cheers,

Thank you Ian

I'll do some more digging and see what I can find - although I doubt I'll discover anything new that you haven't already told me )

Oh, I didn't realise about using metho for shellac. I'll try that first, thanks Ian.

By the way, I got a copy of your article from Australian Wood Review from our stack shelves yesterday - it's a great article and your saws look beautiful. I really love the handles you've made. Stunning!

Regards Adam

Adam

You may have noticed from the Disstonian website that Applewood was used until 1945 and the catalogues up to that date specifically state that the handles are made from this timber. From the 1947 catalogue onwards, the Applewood reference is conspicuously absent and the handle is described as a weather proof finish. The presumption here is that any suitable hardwood was used instead of Applewood, the readily available supplies of which had significantly diminished.

It is not clear what timber was used, although likely contenders would include Cherry, Birch and Beech. Beech is reasonably recogniseable because of the medullary rays. I am the world's worst at identifying timbers, but it is not Beech. I have just revisited your original post to look at the handle again and I see Ian is right on the ball and has echoed my thoughts (or is it the other way around). I don't think shellac was used much as there are frequent references from all the saw manufacturers to varnish and that may have become lacquer as time went on.

What I would say is that later saws incorporated a colouring in the finish, whatever it is, and I have found they are easier to remove so that would be an indicator: Stain penetrates while varnish seals. A combination of the two does neither very well long term. However I think your saw would be at the later end of the Applewood era, circa 1940 as Ian said. I base that on the look of the finish and the slight angular look of the handle compared to earlier versions. The unknown here is how much the Canadian factory was in line with the US manufacturing plants. I pinched this pic from the Disstonian website (I don't think they will mind a single pic lifted) to illustrate the finishes:

Disston D-8 handles.jpg

As you are refinishing the handle you could consider "repairing" the hole. Glue a suitable size dowel in place and plane/sand off the surplus left proud. Actually something cut crosscut with say a hole saw if you don't have a lathe (remove the drill bit once the hole saw is centred and located) would be better than a dowel as the end grain will never match the rest of the handle.Then use a suitable size saw (back saw perhaps) to re-cut the saw kerf. I am thinking out loud here as I recall you were going to live with the "modification."

BTW, cloth backed sandpaper in thin strips (25mm) is ideal for sanding the inside of the handle.

Regards
Paul

Thank you very much, Paul.

I've been reading lots on that site (it's been one of my favourites recently ) but still wasn't sure, sorry. Especially with the small amount of info on the Canadian versions.

I am the world's worst at identifying timbers

- I think you mean 2nd worst, surely I'd hold that spot!

I think you're right about the finish then. It's very flaky and I can even scrape it off with my fingernail. So that's good for me. So it probably isn't shellac then, but I might try Shellawax as Ian mentioned in his AWR article as the finish when done.

Thanks also for the tips on repairing the hole! I'd never thought to use a hole saw like that (don't have a lathe unfortunately... one day!). I did mention that I might leave it, but think I'll at least try the hole saw in a similarly grained piece of wood. I'm sure I can find something among the many scraps I just can't seem to throw out.

FYI, just bought some cloth backed sandpaper

The sun's been shining all day today, so a session in the shed tonight for me.

Thanks again Paul!

Regards Adam

Adam, by sheer coincidence, I found the full saw-making article is available on the web. If I'd known that a couple of days ago you could've gone straight to it without getting out of your chair. Anyway, here's the link if anyone else happens to be interested.

Paul, I was using the term 'lacquer' very loosely, I really just meant 'any other finish than Shellac'. I think you are quite correct that saw manufacturers didn't use shellac, at least not as the main finish. Anyway, the metho/steel wool trick will quickly distinguish shellac from any other finish I know of.

Not sure about trying to plug the 'ole. I would certainly consider doing it, myself, but there are a few problems to surmount. The first is to find some wood that matches. Some Myrtle can be a pretty close match for some Apple, if you don't peer too closely, both are very fine-grained woods, and you might even get a close colour match. You should be able to find a scrap or two of Myrtle where yu are.

I second the suggestion to cut a plug across the grain of anything you decide to use, or it will stick out like the proverbial canine parts. Even using the same species of wood is no guarantee of a seamless patch - I grafted a new horn on this old thumb-hole rip using some well-aged applewood, and it stuck out like a sore thumb: handle etch side.jpg Handle obv.jpg

It's toned down a lot over the years since I did it, but is still easy to spot.

But having been there a long while, the edges of the hole in your handle have acquired some grime & grot, and are likely to stand out around a plug unless you clean the edges up thoroughly. Pity you don't have access to a lathe, 'cos that would make it pretty simple. I'd turn two plugs, each with a slight taper, and bang 'em in from each side til they were nice & tight, then trim off & sand flush. That way, you get as good a fit as possible, and if you size things correctly, the plugs won't meet, so you wont have to worry about re-cutting the blade slot. It's quite a challenge getting that deep circular slot in there. I replaced a handle for an old Disston a few years ago, & just for fun, I decided I'd cut the slot without breaking though the top of the handle, like on the originals. Presumably, Henry's handle-makers used a suitably-sized circular saw and a jig to cut the double curve in the handles (it is amazingly well-controlled, the slot gets awfully close to breaking through the back of the handle in two places!). I ended up making a special hand-saw for the job, but it was still quite a chore...

If you are a patient chap, you could make the plugs by hand, it wouldn't be that difficult. Cut them out carefully with a fret or coping saw (they only need to be about 15mm thick, to go 1/2 way through & leave a few mm to plane & sand off flush with the surface). Neaten the saw cut & apply a slight taper with a fine rasp or coarse file, & Bob's your aunty. If you use glue, my suggestion would be hot hide glue - it acts as a great lubricant whilst hot & liquid, & will make it easier to drive the plugs in firmly. It's also less likely to show through finish if you miss a bit, unlike PVA glues. And of course, try to orient the grain so it matches as closely as possible.

But if you decided to leave the hole as a 'character' mark of its former life, I for one wouldn't critiscise that decision....

Originally Posted by IanW

Adam, by sheer coincidence, I found the full saw-making article is available on the web. If I'd known that a couple of days ago you could've gone straight to it without getting out of your chair. Anyway, here's the link if anyone else happens to be interested.

Ian

I had not seen that version before. A very comprehensive instruction. Could have been called "Everything you wanted to know about saw making, but were afraid to ask."

Regards
Paul

PS: This may end up as a duplicate as the duplicate post gremlin is about.

Ah! Thanks Ian. I don't mind a visit to the 'stacks' from time to time. Plus I've made a colour copy and framed it (joke! not really...lol)
It's an excellent article. And I agree, Paul - that's a much better title.

I can see what you mean about matching the wood. Thinking more about it, I'll probably leave it as-is. And there's a bit of tear-out where the hole was drilled so probably won't look that good when done. I'll accept the way it is - an original with a mystery hole - having character.

Unfortunately I didn't get as much time in the shed last night as I'd hoped. I did get most of the finish off by scraping. But I do need to get some paint stripper though, as the finish inside the handle is in much better condition and not easily removed. Will do that tonight. Definitely not shellac, as you thought. The metho didn't work.

20190327_211515.jpg20190327_211524.jpg

On the topic of addiction - and this nearly made me cry... I've started looking at vintage saws on eBay, Gumtree etc. (thanks for that...lol) And yesterday I found an ad for 12 vintage handsaws from a guy just down the road a bit. Most were 1950s but all were in fantastic condition from the looks of the photos. There was one pre-1928 apparently as well. I didn't see any of the brands as the photos weren't that clear, but he wanted $40 for ALL OF THEM!!! When I called, he had literally just sold them all to the local antiques shop 5 minutes previously. 'The 12 that got away'!!!!!

Originally Posted by Stratman

.... he wanted $40 for ALL OF THEM!!! When I called, he had literally just sold them all to the local antiques shop 5 minutes previously. 'The 12 that got away'!!!!!

Sounds like you missed the bargain of the century!
Ah well, if the shop owner has any morality he/she will on-sell for $20 each, which could still be a bargain, but a mark-up of a mere 600% may not suffice for them....

Cheers,

I know! Gutted. I have contacted the shop owner and am waiting on a phone call back. Fingers crossed...

Originally Posted by Stratman

Unfortunately I didn't get as much time in the shed last night as I'd hoped. I did get most of the finish off by scraping. But I do need to get some paint stripper though, as the finish inside the handle is in much better condition and not easily removed. Will do that tonight. Definitely not shellac, as you thought. The metho didn't work.

Adam

Before you invest in paint stripper I would give sandpaper a really good go. Much of the inside of the handle will be end grain, which has the capacity to absorb the finish to a greater extent than the flat parts of the handle and may not be removed by stripper. The end grain effect will tend to darken the timber also and takes more cleaning up. It can also be quite blotchy. I use strips of cloth backed paper about 300mm to 400mm long and about 25mm wide. Hold the handle in a vice and use both hands to draw the sandpaper back and forth. Remember not to clamp the cheeks too hard or you run the risk of cracking or breaking them off. I use a small piece of saw plate jammed in the kerf to prevent this, but any suitable piece of sheet metal will suffice. Then you can clamp the handle as hard as you like. A horizontal vice is best for this, but a traditional vertical vice works well too, particularly if you have access from the side.

You will probably note that the finish around the grip both inside and outside the hand hole is smoother than the finish on the rest of the saw. Frequently the original literature back in the day referred to "polished edges." For a long time I was puzzled by the expression, but I think it was merely that the surface was further refined or sanded compared to the rest of the wood.

In this Disston catalogue from 1899 the saws are the Keystone and other models at the lower end of their range. They only refer to a "polished edge."

Disston 1899 catalogue.jpg

In this second exert from the same catalogue it describes the D8 as also having a polished edge whereas the two higher models in the range (No.120 & No.12) have a "polished handle" implying that it is the whole handle.

Disston catalogue 1899 D8.jpg

Remember that Disston mass produced saws. To sand the flat parts of the handle, twenty or thirty handles were laid flat on a bench and bunched together and the powered sander was run over the top of them.

These catalogues were for the trade, but quoted the retail price. The catalogues would have be accompanied by a discount sheet. Consequently the price you see quoted is for a dozen saws. A 26" Disston D8 sold in 1899 for US$1.83!

Hell!! We can't buy a single saw screw for that today.

Just a little piece of trivia that I have been reminded of as I looked again at the first pic and it is in regards to the No.304 with the steel reinforcing plate. The handle is Walnut. Other saws did use Walnut from time to time, but the vast majority of American saws used Apple for their up market models and Beech for the lower end ( nearly all British saws used Beech) with the exception of the saws with that reinforcing plate: Not just Disston, all the manufacturers used Walnut or a walnut "finish."

Regards
Paul