Thread: Advice on identifying and restoring Disston saw

Adam, I don't think you really meant you needed help to identify the saw, did you? It's a Disston skew-back, & a D-8 (as etched on the blade), which is about the most common Disston model you stumble on in our part of the world. If you meant help dating it, I don't know if what is written about Philadelphian-made saws applies to Canadian-made examples, but fwiw, the '8' was inside the 'D' until 1928 in the US-manufactured saws. If the handle is Applewood, it dates it to pre-1950, so your saw could be anywhere from ~90 to ~70 years old. You can read all about it on the Disstonian Institute site, here.

If there's no pitting, the rust/'staining' should clean up nicely with W&D paper & kerosene or whatever liquid you prefer using with it. The etch is in great condition, so I'd sand lightly & carefully over that to preserve it. There is no point/need to get it perfect, even a pitted blade will function pretty well, though it doesn't look great......

Nice score!
Cheers,

Thanks Ian!
Much appreciated. This is very helpful to me.

I'll do as you suggest and post some photos too. I'll start with the blade. It looks to be pretty much free of any major pitting.

When you say sand lightly over the etch, do you mean sandpaper, and if so what grit? I don't know what would be too course and may scratch it more than it should be.

Regarding identifying and dating it... Yes! I really did need help.. Lol. I had no idea but have already learnt lots from you, so thank you for that explanation and link too.

Regards Adam

Originally Posted by Stratman

.....When you say sand lightly over the etch, do you mean sandpaper, and if so what grit? I don't know what would be too course and may scratch it more than it should be.....

Yes, Adam, sandpaper. One normally uses 'Wet & dry' on metal, but you can use ordinary white paper. The latter tends to load up & clog with gunk very quickly, whereas W&D used with a liquid doesn't clog so quickly & keeps cutting longer. You can use water, which will work fine if there's no grease or oil on the blade, but if there's greasy gunk on it, kero or turps will work better (but can be even messier!). It's a messy job anyway, so better put down a good layer of old newspaper or do it somewhere where you won't get into trouble for making a mess...

Start with the finest grit that will do the job, and use a small, flat, block of wood as a sanding block, particularly over the etch area. On the 'good' side, it looks like you won't need much effort to get it looking pretty spiffy. I'd try 400 first, & see how that goes. On the other side, you'll probably have to kick off with a much coarser grade, like 180 & then work up. It's nigh on impossible to remove even light pitting, & I suspect you'll find those rust spots go deeper than you think, and will be there for the rest of your saw's life, but that's ok, they won't affect function. Out of curiosity, I cleaned & sharpened a very badly pitted blade a while ago, & it worked fine, much to my surprise.

For a user, there is no practical reason to go beyond 400 grit, but you can go as fine as you like. A well-polished blade does slip through the wood a bit more nicely than a rough one, but sharpness & set have the most effect on performance of any saw. I like to take a new blade to 800 grit & then polish it with "Autosol" metal polish, using a scrunched-up ball of Aluminium cooking foil. You could try that, but it takes hugely more effort to polish an old blade to a mirror finish, far more than I'm prepared to put in! When you put your saw away for a while after use, a rub-over with some paste-wax & light 'polish' will help keep the dreaded rust at bay in the future...

Cheers,

Thanks very much again, Ian.

This is just what I was after.

I will get some wet & dry today in some of the coarser grits that you've suggested. I imagine there will be some pitting then, but as you say it will still be good to use. Glad about that and I won't bother about getting a mirror finish - I think I'd prefer the vintage look anyway

Thank you again for all the tips on restoration and maintaining the blade, Ian. I really appreciate your time!

Looking forward to using this saw. I'll post some photos when I'm done.

Regards
Adam

No worries Adam, there are a couple of other saw tragics that I'm surprised haven't pitched in yet - probably busy elsewhere.

There are some other matters I meant to comment on, but forgot:

1. That thumping great hole in the handle??? It looks like someone used a holesaw to remove the bolt, but why & for what reason I haven't the foggiest idea! (Edit: on second look, there's no hole in the saw plate, so it must be a panel saw, i.e., smaller than a handsaw (which usually start around 26 inches (~650mm) in length), & only had 4 bolts.

2. The 'pitch' of the saw is usually stamped on the blade, a couple of cm above the tooth line, just below the handle (on the etch side). Your saw has very little wear, so the stamp should still be there. The North American custom is to express this as "points per inch", which is (approximately) one more than the number of teeth per inch. I can sort-of see why they might have chosen to use that convention, but 'teeth per inch' has always made more sense to me!

3. Lastly, is your saw a rip or crosscut? I made the pics as large as I could, & it looks like it's rip (i.e., the teeth are filed straight across to make 'chisel' points). I first thought it was crosscut, partly because it looks like it's about 8 or 9 ppi??, and partly because the rake angle is a bit more than I'd expect on a rip saw (commonly 5-7 degrees negative rake). It's not at all uncommon to see saws that have been re-purposed or badly filed, which can mean it'll take a bit of extra effort to get them back in 'proper' working order. If you are not familiar with saw sharpening, you would be well-advised to find someone who knows what they are doing to show you the ropes & get it back in tip-top shape. Once cleaned up, well-sharpened & set, it will probably amaze you how good a saw can be!

Cheers,

Ian! You're a bit of a legend with saws (and making them!) on these forums. I've been reading some of your posts today . I'm sure there are many other experts as you mention but I'll take your advice on it's own any day. Brilliant stuff, thank you.

Okie dokes... Pictures attached to help you in any way. Please let me know if you want different ones.

1. I know! I've been madly researching on Disstonian and other sites and have yet to see a hole like this. I think you're right though. I just measured and it's 24". The etch says "D-8" inside the emblem/logo. Not sure about that hole, hope the pic helps. And there's that trademark info pic if that helps.
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2. It has the "8" stamped on the blade. And it looks close enough on the ruler to me? Dear oh dear... I thought this was related to the D-8 when I saw the "8" when making the first post...lol ("laugh out loud" or "lots of learning", take your pick)
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3. To my eye (poorly trained) I can sort of see the two facets vs none on every other tooth. But it's very slight. See if the photo helps you... A bit hard to capture. The area outside the circled area in the one photo is not captured by the camera lens very well, when I look at the blade straight on, all the teeth look like the circled ones. The rake angle does look more than 5-7 degrees to me though. And from the top makes me more confused. Over to you, sir.
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Thanks again Ian. This is great!

Unfortunately I don't know anyone to show me. I have been watching the Paul Sellers videos and he makes the process sound simple...but then there's my ability and skill to actually do it. He does do a good job at explaining (and his videos are pretty much where I've learnt all my woodworking - up until joining here of course!), but I might look around for a local sharpener as you suggest because I don't want to botch it.

I'm looking forward to using it, for sure! First step... Clean that blade up a bit. Got my w&d today so I'll 'get cracking' (carefully!)

Regards Adam

Ian, I quickly used some 400 W&D with kero. Had a used piece laying around and just wanted to see how it was to use with the kero etc. I'm certainly not wanting a mirror finish, I'd much prefer it to look old
Obviously I still need to clean up around the teeth and am far from finished generally, but wanted to check something with you...
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It feels extremely smooth, but is that rust still between the 'grooves' (I can barely feel these grooves, if at all, but certainly not the 'rust', extremely smoother over that too), or is it just the colour/patina? Would starting again with the 180 as you suggested, get to that a bit better?

Thanks Ian, I'm really enjoying learning about this and restoring another of my grandfather's tools.

Regards Adam

Adam

That is a very clean looking saw and well worth some effort. There is not too much specific information available on the Canada Disstons other than they were made in Canada! As Ian said there was a distinct change in the range in 1928. The model was listed subsequently as "D-8." Before 1928 it was "D8" and the eight was placed inside the "D."

For some reason the hole has been drilled in the handle after manufacture: Possibly to replicate the "thumbhole" design, which was used mainly, but not exclusively, on full sized handsaws with rip teeth. Whoever did the modification had not realised the saw plate would be in the way and defeat the object of the "thumbhole."

Use your coarse grade of W & D until the plate is as "clean" as you want. The finer grades will polish the plate. On your particular saw, no coarser than 240g on the etch side and go carefully over the etch.

Regards
Paul

Ah thank you, Paul. Gee this is a great forum

That explains the hole then.

And I'll go back and start with the coarse (but only 240 on the etch side and carefully) and continue on. Just didn't want to leave any rust. I like the patina (if that's the right word) so hope that remains a bit.

Thanks a lot, Paul.
Regards Adam

Adam, just a quick reply as I have to go out shortly.

I absolutely agree with Paul that the hole was someone's bright idea and it didn't leave the factory that way. possibly to make a 'thumb' hole as he suggests, or for who knows what reason? As he says, there is little reason for them on a panel saw, which is undoubtedly what you have at 24". That's on the bigger end of these saws, which were made primarily for carting around in tool chests for those small jobs. The hole won't make any material difference to your saw, it's just a bit of a 'blemish', it's in otherwise spanking condition for its age.

I wouldn't be hard & fast about it, but I suspect your saw started out as a crosscut, though it could've been a rip, 7tpi or 8ppi would be a useble pitch for a smallish saw like yours either way. Anyway, the filing atm is a bit shonky, but looks like it's more or less straight across. It would make an excellent small ripsaw, anyway, I have one like that (thanks to Bushmiller, in fact! ), and it's very handy indeed for small ripping jobs. One attraction to restoring it as a rip is that it's a heck of a lot easier for a tyro to sharpen rip pattern than crosscut, so a good place to begin your saw-sharpening career.

I suggest you try to reduce the rake to something like 7 degrees, that will be reasonably smooth cutting. Bringing the rake forward makes the saw more aggressive, but harder to start, so I always suggest a beginner start at the more 'relaxed' end for rake on a ripsaw. There are a coupe of ways of filing a consistent slope, the simplest being to jam the file in a square stick to hold it at the correct angle relative to the toothline. If I get a chance later today, I'll dig up some pics to illustrate it. I've posted on sharpening this way, but it was a long time back & the pics have probably been vapourised in that little upgrade accident we had some years ago. I'll see what I can find, talk to you later.....
Cheers,

Thanks Ian

My grandfather, who I assume was the original owner, used to do all kinds of weird and wonderful things so I would have loved to have asked him. So I guess I have a 'bastardised beauty'. I'm looking forward to restoring the handle now and will leave it exactly as-is. Gives it a quirk and a mystery.

That makes sense, Ian. It does look shonky like it is supposed to be rip but not filed all that perpendicular to the blade. Lots of variation but looks like it was trying to be perpendicular. I can see what you mean. And that's what I'll do then. I could use the rip saw much more than the crosscut with what I'm doing at the moment so that will be perfect for my needs. And I have 'crosscut tenon saw' (not sure what the correct name is?) which I can use for most of my cross-cutting needs. A rip saw it shall be

And I'll take your advice with my sharpening too, thanks Ian. I'll hunt around too if you can't find anything but will tackle that after I've heard from you.

Have to finish that blade and juggle the boys and their 'weekend taxi service'

Thanks again, Ian
Talk to you later.
Regards Adam

OK, it's now 'later' & I've had a search for posts on filing, but can't locate where I may have talked about this in the past - probably getting myself confused with an article I wrote for Aust. Wood Review a goodly while ago (AWR issue # 78 if your local library has back issues). There is lots of info on the interweb on saw filing. I'm not much on videos, preferring a good write-up, and this is one of the better ones, I think. It has plenty of clear explanation of what you are trying to achieve. Some of his recommendations are maybe not the ultimate for our hard, hard woods, but they are a good start-point. If you persist with saws and develop some expertise, you will almost certainly develop your own views on rake & fleam angles, but let's stick with learning to crawl at this stage.

So, it's pretty clear from your pictures that the teeth on your little saw need some dentistry. If you've ever watched an expert saw-doc filing teeth, they do it with amazing speed & accuracy by eye! While I'm comfy sharpening teeth in relatively good condition by eye, I wouldn't trust my eyes alone for cutting a whole set of new teeth or straightening up a badly filed set as you have there. I need some sort of guide that allows me to keep the cutting edges of the file as close to constant as possible. Lee Valley sell a gadget that will do this. It's a good bit of kit (I have one & use it regularly), but unless you are going to make or fix many saws, not really worth spending what it would cost to to land one in the Apple Isle. Instead, this is a cost-free, simple & very effective way of doing it: Rake angle guide.jpg

The pic should be fairly self-explanatory, but in brief, you take a small, square stick of wood about 75-100mm long, scribe a mark across the middle of it at the desired rake angle, drill a suitably-sized hole just beside the line, and jam the file in so one edge is dead parallel with your scribed line. In the pic, the blade is set with the handle end to the right, so by holding the stick horizontally with my left hand as I file, the back edge of the file is cutting the leading edge of each tooth at the desired rake angle.

The tops of the teeth on your saw look to be fairly even, but you should check before you begin, by running a 10 inch smooth-cut, Mill or Flat file over the tops. If after a couple of light passes there is an even shiny spot on the top of every tooth, they are even. If some are shiny & some not, keep filing until every tooth has a shiny, flat top. The file should be held dead square to the perpendicular blade, so most people like to make up a small jig like this: Saw jointer2.jpg But you can just hand-hold for light jointing.

It takes about 2 minutes to make the jig. The file is held in place in a suitably-sized slot, square to the face of the jig, by a couple of bolts screwed into tapped holes in the wood, but a couple of wood screws will do the same job. By pressing the wooden face against the saw blade, it's easy to keep the file dead square as you 'joint' your saw.

OK, with that all done, get comfy and settle in to file your teeth even. Don't try to make each tooth perfect before moving on, just make two firm, even strokes per tooth, concentrating on holding the file level & square & keeping that stick horizontal, then move onto the next. When you come to the end, go back & start over, watching those flats you made on the tops of the tooth to see how even they are. If some are wider than others, it means one or both gullets (the 'hole' between each tooth point) either side of the wider flat are too shallow. At first you'll probably struggle to tell which one is shallow & needs an extra stroke or two, but with practice, it will get much easier. If you decide one gullet is shallow & the other ok, press the file against the side with the wide 'flat' so it cuts more from that side as it deepens the gullet.

Once you've got all your teeth even & with sharp points, it's time to set them. Without set, a saw will bind fiercely, but by having set (each alternate tooth is pushed to one side or the other) the saw cuts a kerf wider than the thickness of the blade. How much wider it needs to be depends on a few factors, but chiefly the moisture content of the wood you wish to saw. My dad did a lot of building with semi-green wood & his saws were always set much more than I set mine, because I mostly saw dry, medium-hard to softer woods. There are other factors that influence the amount of set desirable, but we'll leave that for another day. The rule of thumb is to apply enough set so the saw cuts a kerf approximately 20% wider than the thickest part of the saw blade (your saw will have a tapered blade, so it is thickest at the tooth line, and noticeably thinner along the back). *This is just a rough guide, preferences & mileages vary!* Since you are starting from scratch, with nothing to guide you, I would suggest starting off with the lowest setting on your saw-set (usually the highest number on the dial). You can always add more if it isn't enough to suit you, it's more difficult to reduce it (it can be done, but best avoid the necessity!).

Saw sets like these 'Eclipse' models can be picked up for a very reasonable sum from all sorts of places: Eclipses.jpg Most folks don't know what the darn things are, so they are not highly collectible & prices tend to reflect that - I've never paid more than about $15 for an old one in good nick. If buying at a flea market, make sure it has both parts of the plunger present & correct. The large piston should close smoothly before the little tongue that presses the tooth over emerges: Plunger closing on plate.jpg

It's not uncommon to come across old sets with the guts of the plunger missing (I've no idea why!), just put that one down & walk on, there are plenty of fish in that particular sea!

Ok, I've burbled on enough for the moment....
Cheers,

Welcome back, Ian

I'm finished for the day with my running around and chores but have to head out shortly so will get stuck in tomorrow. I'll check out the link you provided too.

Wow, thank you all of this!!! There's so much more detail and explanations than I could get from a video. The pics are great and really help me understand.

Actually I think we do have that magazine at the library. I work at the State Library in IT so I'll call in the favours and check out your article.

I've finished the blade itself now and started with 240 as Paul suggested and it worked well. You're right about the mess! I finished up with 800 and think I'll leave it there (unless you think it needs more work?). I'm happy with how it looks and it feels very smooth and consistent. There was little to zero set on the teeth as I noticed hardly any damage to the W&D when run over the teeth.

The guide you've shown looks great and I will make myself one. I'll check the tops of the teeth as you've suggested and see how they fare. Hopefully they're not too bad!

You've gone out of your way in my book to explain the proceess and I feel quite confident I can follow it. In fact I'm really looking forward to getting this saw sharp so I can use it. Thank you

I've been looking at those Eclipse tools and there's a few available online for $20-30 and they look in good shape. What do you think of the Somax version? I can get a new one for around $40. And they have the two sizes for the hammer - ~1.5mm and 2.4mm if memory serves me correctly.

This really is an educational, and fun, experience for me and I can't thank you enough for your efforts, Ian. I'm learning far more than I expected when first creating this thread.

Cheers Adam

Adam

This is the video I normally mention for newcomers to handsaws as it covers almost every aspect of restoration including sharpening several saws with different configurations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_MF2Mnxwc

Beware. It is lengthy! You probably need to be a drinker.

Regards
Paul