Results 106 to 120 of 123
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22nd April 2018, 11:35 AM #106
Ok Daryl. I think you have nailed it there.
Regards
Paul
Edit: If you do fall foul of the authorities and end up in a penitentiary, we will certainly start a thread on the best files as this could prove useful if parole is not an option.Last edited by Bushmiller; 22nd April 2018 at 11:39 AM. Reason: additional info in case of incarceration
Bushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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22nd April 2018 11:35 AM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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23rd April 2018, 12:57 AM #107GOLD MEMBER
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23rd April 2018, 01:02 AM #108GOLD MEMBER
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This is, of course, a matter of taste (which becomes a matter of opinion unless actual testable comfort comes about...which it won't, because the golden era disston handles and the english handles are both comfortable).
What disston succeeded in doing was modularizing production of the handles and taking almost all of the hand work out of them. So they have an aesthetic that looks like that (one that I wouldn't have noticed until I started making handles). The English were slow to follow, and I don't know what happened in England, but it's safe to say that Disston was probably a more profitable maker once they figured out how to do this, and they weathered the storm of the downturn until nobody could've survived (post 1935 when handsaws started to become a utility tool rather than a main use tool).
I have to go look at your pictures and comment back on those.....
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23rd April 2018, 01:10 AM #109GOLD MEMBER
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OK, I checked your pictures. The seaton picture from Dominic is quirky compared to the actual seaton chest saws. Those saws had perfect lines and really deliberate proportions, but Dominic's picture is chunky. Setting aside the fact that Dominic banned me from woodnet about half a decade ago (or more), he doesn't quite have the design sense to know that his pictures are off.
What makes the seaton tool chest saws so fantastic is the lines that remain on them, and how they go from the center of the saw to terminating at the end.
The groves handles you show have this style. They are head and shoulders above everything else, though perhaps not in utility once a wearer is outside wearing a glove. Most of the rest of the changes disston made were cost related, but disston's biggest contribution is mass marketing, mass production and very even steel quality. I haven't had enough later english saws to really be able to compare consistency, but the groves saw that I have is as good as any that I've gotten in every respect, steel, stiffness, handle, etc (this is a carpenters rip saw that I'm referring to). I'd imagine it was expensive. I have an earlier saw or three from England, but they precede the time when Disston had their processes refined to the level they were at 1900, so to say that they have hard spots in the plate really isn't a good comparison (I've had much earlier disstons that were difficult to set because the teeth would snap, even on saws that were relatively easy to file).
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23rd April 2018, 01:36 AM #110GOLD MEMBER
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Couple more comments:
First, I'd divide the seaton chest saws into two groups:
1) the dovetail and joinery saws
2) the carpenter or panel saws (don't know how long they are).
The handle proportions on the dovetail saws, and the workmanship are as good as I've ever seen anywhere. Notice how the lines are very crisp (this is relatively difficult to do if the curves are variable - they are fixed on a disston because they're done on something with a spindle), and notice how they terminate right into the end of the horns. That makes them delicate. The further onto the side of the saw that the lines terminate, the harder it is to make them crisp. Groves seems to have a lot of the same elements, but even the groves handle you showed on the panel saws is a bit upright.
Second, the panel saws: If you look at the white saws and other saws, you find that it's likely that these large handles were probably a bit immature. Even so, The hang of Dominic's pattern is too upright compared to Seaton's. These are details that would've been pored over when Seaton did the saw, but we write them off a bit easily. I'd imagine that if you copied dominic's pattern, you'll find that the saw is a bit too upright. What's "right"? The best I can figure, until you get into radical hang angles, is that a saw should have the center of the handle about 65 degrees plus or minus a little from perpendicular to the travel. There are other details that matter, of course (how far back on the saw the handle is, how tall the plate is under the handle, etc).
I'm surprised that the seaton handles on the large saws are as good as they are, but the ergonomics and location may have moved a bit further up on the saw and with slightly greater angle 50 years later. Disston made a radical change to this by asserting that their saws were better with the handles pushed into the plate and the hang angle increased. I don't think that's better, but they had to market something. They also made dueling claims about the skewback, but that is, again, perhaps only marketing.
The 65 degree figure I used above is based on this:
* put something round in your hand (a round remote, a magic marker, etc) and lay your hand on the table. Grip it firmly directly upright. Feel how your wrist feels. You'll notice that you have to influence your wrist a little bit to hold item straight up, the firmer the grip, the more you feel it. This leads to soreness in use if you actually use something like that (which is why people with a low bench complain about the LV handles, of course - they will leave you with a very sore wrist).
* now, let the marker cant forward 20 or 25 degrees and then squeeze. Your wrist will be relaxed feeling, even with a firm grip. This is a natural pushing position. No soreness. The only thing missing with the marker is the feeling of something in your palm (the hump of a plane or saw handle fixes this). You can push straight forward like this without a tight grip and without using your wrist to do much. It's ideal.
Some of the atkins and disston saws with higher hang angle will leave you pushing the saw down into the work. I think I read somewhere that Disston advertised that this leads to faster cutting, but it leads to a rougher cut and a saw stroke that stops abruptly. They didn't have this set in design on the 12 or 7, which I think most hand tool users will find to be preferable. Perhaps the inset handles with higher angles appealed to carpenters roughing 2x4s. Don't know.
Some of this, I got off on a tangent on, and some has less to do with comfort or design, but I think disston didn't really ever improve on the better english pattern saws, but he/they figured out how to make handles more cheaply, faster, more mechanized and with lower skilled labor, and that meant financial success for them. I don't favor giving up complex radii for a single machine radius, but it's certainly easier and faster to do the later style.
(still looking at pictures as I write this, as I don't have many later disston saws - but I may be wrong about the disston hang angle - it appears that on the earlier d8s, it stayed similar. It's the atkins saws of the same style that go steeper than 65/70 degrees, and i've never liked them that much in use (unfortunately, I have two of them).
It still sticks in my mind that the English saws with the handles hanging off of the back get all the way through the stroke more easily for a given filing. You can relax the filing on an atkins saw to slow that down, but then you lose the bite and it's ultimately not faster.
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24th April 2018, 10:03 AM #111New Member
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Paul,
You say you want one, huh? Well I'm going to be putting it's sister up on the 'Bay sometime this week. It's not as shiny as this one but it still is a fine 12ppi and has the same lambs tongue mahogany handle. The handle was damaged and I had to repair it, but it's solid. The only reason I'm selling it is because the one shown is now my "keeper". The saw has a definite heft to it, measuring in at .041" at the tooth line, .019" at the back at the point, .030" in the middle of the back and .038" where it enters the handle. It reminds me of the taper grind on some of my Disston Acme 120's. It has a whisper of set and produces a very smooth cut.
Take care,
Daryl
DSCN1218.jpg DSCN1220.jpg DSCN1223.jpg DSCN1229.jpg
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24th April 2018, 04:36 PM #112
Me and my mouth!!
DSCN1218.jpg
It looks to be a beauty. I am sure it will sell very well. A bit too well I'm afraid. What I want and what I can afford are too often mutually exclusive.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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24th April 2018, 06:06 PM #113
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24th April 2018, 10:40 PM #114
Matt
It's as good as yours. I don't see how a red blooded human could deny such a plea. BTW, does Sally still have a contract out on me or was that another wife who blames her husband's addiction on me? Either way, they must form an orderly queue.
I wouldn't mind that saw. I wonder if the green grass is included in the deal. Green grass around here at the moment is rarer than Greyhound saws!
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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24th April 2018, 11:07 PM #115Bushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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25th April 2018, 12:07 AM #116
I get the impression that prices are trending up lately. The economy must have improved some.
Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
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25th April 2018, 01:29 AM #117GOLD MEMBER
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Ebay has gone weirder each year, too.
The auction prices on a lot of things are half the BIN prices listed, but the BIN sellers don't seem to care (not sure why they want to hold items so long).
There are certain things I've shopped for where there are 60 of something listed for double the price that any have sold for in the last three months, and total 3 month sales are only 3 or 4 items.
Not sure how ebay is for professional sellers, but there are no fees for people who don't list too much, and that only encourages people to pollute the listings with absurd BINs. Of course, certain sellers have absurdly long descriptions which go on and on, they set a history of higher than others' prices and people pay them a premium for something relatively average. The power of marketing, I guess. (rash of average atkins backsaws with faint etches selling for $200 or so five years ago from a seller called azmica comes to mind. Along with comments like "this saw is filed with a racing profile".
ahh...OK. does it corner well or something? Does the handle say "Firestone Racing" on it or something?
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25th April 2018, 01:41 PM #118
Rob and DW
Basically I agree with both of you regarding Ebay. Perhaps the American economy has become Trumped up . ( I really must stop that!)
On the Buy it Now situation, I think half of the sellers are dealers who are seeking a higher price to be viable and the other half are people who have no realistic grasp of the market. Some of the products, not just hand saws and other woodworking tools, I am sure I have seen for more than a year. Periodically they are relisted. I cannot see the rationale behind having goods "sitting on the shelf." For the commercial sellers it is surely financial suicide to have so much stock tied up.
Of course sometimes the dealers and those who have no idea of their good's value are the same entity!
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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25th April 2018, 02:39 PM #119
Early on in the thread I made mention of throwing in a saw or two to hijack the hijackers and bring the thread back on track.
So here is a probably futile attempt to do just that:
Back in post #97 I mentioned a saw for sale that was indeed a Four Hundred. It was a rip saw and 5 1/2ppi, so when I later said it was not a rip saw I must have been looking at something else . This was the saw and now everybody is fully conversant with the nuances of the Four Hundred production you will be able to assess the era.
Atkins 400 on Ebay 1.jpgAtkins 400 on Ebay 3.jpgAtkins 400 on Ebay 2.jpgAtkins 400 on Ebay 5.jpg
Clearly it is before the Borg Warner ownership (1952) as there is no mention of that company. It has the lacquered "Piano" finish. This type of lacquer would, I think, have been a synthetic product and at this stage I can only surmise that it was introduced between the world wars. In fact the 1919 catalogue refers to a "Piano" finish. However the handle shape is the less defined style and I would hazard a guess at post WW2 which would give a seven year window.
This saw, which is a straight back, should have the number 401 on it but again says 400. It does seem to be a common anomaly. Perhaps they ran out of 401 etches.
Just as a small aside, Disston apparently had difficulty sourcing Brazilian Rosewood for a while during and immediately post WW2. They introduced their D42 and D43 models using Walnut handles (and steel hardware) as an "austerity" measure ( ). After 1945 for several years the D-15 had a plywood handle, again presumeably because of difficulty in obtaining the Rosewood. I have no information as to how Atkins coped with Rosewood supplies during this same period. I could guess that because the saw was expensive sales were low during the war years and Atkins had timber stock remaining from the pre-war years, but that doesn't really stack up as you may remember the price of these flagship models had equalised by this time.
The Disstonian Institute information says the D-15 was only listed with a ply handle in the 1947 catalogue and returned to Rosewood in 1951, but the catalogue extract below from 1952 still refers to a "laminated" handle:
1952 Disston Keystone adv 2.jpg
And so you can see the relevant bit:
Disston D-15 laminated handle 1952.jpg
Apart from a few stains on the saw plate the condition is good with one glaring defect. The original owner felt sufficiently possessive of his new saw that he engraved his name on the plate. Bit of a shame that!
Atkins 400 on Ebay 4.jpg
Well, I said the 400 on Ebay would sell for $90. It made $89.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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25th April 2018, 03:48 PM #120
Hi Paul
just a comment on "lacquer" finishes.
After November 1918, the world was awash with cellulose nitrate -- a component of war time munitions. One of the ways the surplus was used up was as an ingredient of "lacquer". So it's possible Atkins introduced a lacquer piano finish in 1919.regards from Alberta, Canada
ian
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