Thread: Atkins Four Hundred. "The Finest on Earth?"

Originally Posted by Daryl Weir

Paul,

I blatantly ripped this picture from Google photos, so hopefully the internet police won't come after me!

Attachment 434052

They'll never notice them - since they're posted in australia, they'll appear upside down to their internet police copyright software!

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

D.W.

At the start of the 19th century all hand tools in America would have been British. When the fledgling US manufacturers began to produce their own offerings they had to make a point of difference. There had to be a reason for Americans to buy American made tools. Remember there was a marked backlash against the home grown products as they were seen as inferior.

Initially all the steel was imported from the UK and even after Henry Disston had his own steel mill (1855) he kept that quiet and down played it's existence. Even the No.12 continued to refer to "London Spring Steel." As time went on there was more acceptance by the market of the American product. With handles the London pattern persisted for some time but I feel that is was more with back saws than hand saws. I have not checked that statement so it is certainly up for discussion. I like the Kenyon saws, but those in the Seaton tool chest were made around 1790, maybe even as late as 1797. Those famous saws were quirky and had style. As you said they relied on their form rather than decoration and I know this appeals to many woodworkers. However the shape to modern eyes was unusual:

Attachment 433990


I liked it enough to attempt to replicate the original, albeit with an Australian timber:

Attachment 433993

I think the narrowing of the timber at the top saw screw is what seems unbalanced. It reminds me somehow of paintings of horses from the same era. Their heads were elongated. The handle was functional more than stylistic. If we are looking for style perhaps this type of handle from R.Groves is elegant. I would place it as mid 1800s, but that is a wiild guess. Certainly pre Glover screw (1887)as it has split nuts.

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However I have to disagree that the Disston handles lacked style. Their handles up until WW1 were as good as it gets. It is true to say that earlier handles were better than late handles and they showed more finesse. Disston was ahead of his time and that is why the company survived. Around the 1870s, I think, Disston introduced the bandsaw to cut out the saw blanks and by 1900 the handles were no longer carved by hand but engraved with a rotary tool. This accounts for the very fine wheat carving in the early years of the No.12 compared to a coarser product post 1900. Now if you are talking post 1928 i agree that the handles were now purely a means of holding the saw and not much else.

Just to get back to the Kenyon style handle,which was functional, surely the Atkins 400 handle had reverted to that philosophy as there is a complete absense of wheat carving and a less intricate handle design.

Regards
Paul





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This is, of course, a matter of taste (which becomes a matter of opinion unless actual testable comfort comes about...which it won't, because the golden era disston handles and the english handles are both comfortable).

What disston succeeded in doing was modularizing production of the handles and taking almost all of the hand work out of them. So they have an aesthetic that looks like that (one that I wouldn't have noticed until I started making handles). The English were slow to follow, and I don't know what happened in England, but it's safe to say that Disston was probably a more profitable maker once they figured out how to do this, and they weathered the storm of the downturn until nobody could've survived (post 1935 when handsaws started to become a utility tool rather than a main use tool).

I have to go look at your pictures and comment back on those.....

OK, I checked your pictures. The seaton picture from Dominic is quirky compared to the actual seaton chest saws. Those saws had perfect lines and really deliberate proportions, but Dominic's picture is chunky. Setting aside the fact that Dominic banned me from woodnet about half a decade ago (or more), he doesn't quite have the design sense to know that his pictures are off.

What makes the seaton tool chest saws so fantastic is the lines that remain on them, and how they go from the center of the saw to terminating at the end.

The groves handles you show have this style. They are head and shoulders above everything else, though perhaps not in utility once a wearer is outside wearing a glove. Most of the rest of the changes disston made were cost related, but disston's biggest contribution is mass marketing, mass production and very even steel quality. I haven't had enough later english saws to really be able to compare consistency, but the groves saw that I have is as good as any that I've gotten in every respect, steel, stiffness, handle, etc (this is a carpenters rip saw that I'm referring to). I'd imagine it was expensive. I have an earlier saw or three from England, but they precede the time when Disston had their processes refined to the level they were at 1900, so to say that they have hard spots in the plate really isn't a good comparison (I've had much earlier disstons that were difficult to set because the teeth would snap, even on saws that were relatively easy to file).

Couple more comments:

First, I'd divide the seaton chest saws into two groups:
1) the dovetail and joinery saws
2) the carpenter or panel saws (don't know how long they are).

The handle proportions on the dovetail saws, and the workmanship are as good as I've ever seen anywhere. Notice how the lines are very crisp (this is relatively difficult to do if the curves are variable - they are fixed on a disston because they're done on something with a spindle), and notice how they terminate right into the end of the horns. That makes them delicate. The further onto the side of the saw that the lines terminate, the harder it is to make them crisp. Groves seems to have a lot of the same elements, but even the groves handle you showed on the panel saws is a bit upright.

Second, the panel saws: If you look at the white saws and other saws, you find that it's likely that these large handles were probably a bit immature. Even so, The hang of Dominic's pattern is too upright compared to Seaton's. These are details that would've been pored over when Seaton did the saw, but we write them off a bit easily. I'd imagine that if you copied dominic's pattern, you'll find that the saw is a bit too upright. What's "right"? The best I can figure, until you get into radical hang angles, is that a saw should have the center of the handle about 65 degrees plus or minus a little from perpendicular to the travel. There are other details that matter, of course (how far back on the saw the handle is, how tall the plate is under the handle, etc).

I'm surprised that the seaton handles on the large saws are as good as they are, but the ergonomics and location may have moved a bit further up on the saw and with slightly greater angle 50 years later. Disston made a radical change to this by asserting that their saws were better with the handles pushed into the plate and the hang angle increased. I don't think that's better, but they had to market something. They also made dueling claims about the skewback, but that is, again, perhaps only marketing.

The 65 degree figure I used above is based on this:
* put something round in your hand (a round remote, a magic marker, etc) and lay your hand on the table. Grip it firmly directly upright. Feel how your wrist feels. You'll notice that you have to influence your wrist a little bit to hold item straight up, the firmer the grip, the more you feel it. This leads to soreness in use if you actually use something like that (which is why people with a low bench complain about the LV handles, of course - they will leave you with a very sore wrist).
* now, let the marker cant forward 20 or 25 degrees and then squeeze. Your wrist will be relaxed feeling, even with a firm grip. This is a natural pushing position. No soreness. The only thing missing with the marker is the feeling of something in your palm (the hump of a plane or saw handle fixes this). You can push straight forward like this without a tight grip and without using your wrist to do much. It's ideal.

Some of the atkins and disston saws with higher hang angle will leave you pushing the saw down into the work. I think I read somewhere that Disston advertised that this leads to faster cutting, but it leads to a rougher cut and a saw stroke that stops abruptly. They didn't have this set in design on the 12 or 7, which I think most hand tool users will find to be preferable. Perhaps the inset handles with higher angles appealed to carpenters roughing 2x4s. Don't know.

Some of this, I got off on a tangent on, and some has less to do with comfort or design, but I think disston didn't really ever improve on the better english pattern saws, but he/they figured out how to make handles more cheaply, faster, more mechanized and with lower skilled labor, and that meant financial success for them. I don't favor giving up complex radii for a single machine radius, but it's certainly easier and faster to do the later style.

(still looking at pictures as I write this, as I don't have many later disston saws - but I may be wrong about the disston hang angle - it appears that on the earlier d8s, it stayed similar. It's the atkins saws of the same style that go steeper than 65/70 degrees, and i've never liked them that much in use (unfortunately, I have two of them).

It still sticks in my mind that the English saws with the handles hanging off of the back get all the way through the stroke more easily for a given filing. You can relax the filing on an atkins saw to slow that down, but then you lose the bite and it's ultimately not faster.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Hi Daryl

Welcome to the Forums. May I say what a perfect place to start (particularly for you) .

Geo Bishop is somebody I tend to forget, mainly because my knowledge of his products is severely lacking, but that Greyhound saw of yours is absolutely superb. I am reluctant to talk in superlatives because as soon as I do that something comes along that is better, but I would say that saw is as good as it gets! I have a great liking for the lambs tongue handle and the general style of that handle seems perfectly balanced with a smallish (correct) handle hole. I want one! Perhaps you could supply a little more information as to when that saw was produced. I quickly had a look at the few Bishop saws I have and none of them had a lambs tongue handle and none of them could hold a candle to the saw you have posted.

One panel saw had "Greyhound" without a number, there was an OK No.8, several also ran No.8s and a No.300. That's pretty much exhausted my knowledge of G.H.Bishop! Just by chance on the same hook was a Keen Kutter 26" handsaw. The point I noticed about this saw (no etch) was that is had nickel plated brass hardware and a nib.

With the Diamond Edge saws and the H M Finch, the aspect that has confused me is the almost vertical timber ahead of the top cove. I have not really seen this on other saw handles. I have highlighted this difference below.

Attachment 434041Attachment 434042Attachment 434043

Apologies for the wiggly red line: I can't draw to save myself. It was this difference that alerted me to the similarity with some of the Diamond edge saws and, other than the DE saws, I have not really seen this "angular" treatment at the top of the handle from other saw manufacturers. I suppose we have to consider that they may have made special handles for selected customers, but I would have thought that rather defeated the attraction of selling more of their own saws just rebadged: A fairly simple process compared to designing a separate handle.

On a separate note, one point I should mention for readers of this thread is that the first saw I showed in post #97, the Disston No.7, when I was "finding" rip saws for Ian, is a saw restored and sharpened by Darryl.

Regards
Paul

Paul,

You say you want one, huh? Well I'm going to be putting it's sister up on the 'Bay sometime this week. It's not as shiny as this one but it still is a fine 12ppi and has the same lambs tongue mahogany handle. The handle was damaged and I had to repair it, but it's solid. The only reason I'm selling it is because the one shown is now my "keeper". The saw has a definite heft to it, measuring in at .041" at the tooth line, .019" at the back at the point, .030" in the middle of the back and .038" where it enters the handle. It reminds me of the taper grind on some of my Disston Acme 120's. It has a whisper of set and produces a very smooth cut.

Take care,
Daryl

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Me and my mouth!!

DSCN1218.jpg

It looks to be a beauty. I am sure it will sell very well. A bit too well I'm afraid. What I want and what I can afford are too often mutually exclusive.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Daryl Weir

Paul,

You say you want one, huh? Well I'm going to be putting it's sister up on the 'Bay sometime this week. It's not as shiny as this one but it still is a fine 12ppi and has the same lambs tongue mahogany handle. The handle was damaged and I had to repair it, but it's solid. The only reason I'm selling it is because the one shown is now my "keeper". The saw has a definite heft to it, measuring in at .041" at the tooth line, .019" at the back at the point, .030" in the middle of the back and .038" where it enters the handle. It reminds me of the taper grind on some of my Disston Acme 120's. It has a whisper of set and produces a very smooth cut.

Take care,
Daryl

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Sally,
There is a saw for sale
That I must have for reasons you don't comprehend.
Please increase my pay check this week please.

Cheers Matt.

Matt

It's as good as yours. I don't see how a red blooded human could deny such a plea. BTW, does Sally still have a contract out on me or was that another wife who blames her husband's addiction on me? Either way, they must form an orderly queue.

I wouldn't mind that saw. I wonder if the green grass is included in the deal. Green grass around here at the moment is rarer than Greyhound saws!

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Ian

A quick snap shot from this morning:

Fully restored and sharpened Disston No.7 (Est. $150)

Attachment 433894

Atkins 400. As is: (Est. $90)

Attachment 433895

Atkins No.53 Fully restored and sharpened (Est. $220)
Attachment 433896

Disston No.112. As is (Est $75)

Attachment 433897

Simonds No.371 as is: (Est $35)
Attachment 433898

Disston D-8 Thumbhole. As is (Est $75)

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This is just a small selection and they are all auctions which is why I have estimated what I think they will go for, but I could be a mile out in either direction. As is means that it is not sharpened and not cleaned up. Also I did not look really closely as I am supposed to be finishing off the installation of another water tank and not "playing with toys!" For example the big bogey is broken teeth. Particularly on a rip saw even a single tooth effectively means you have to retooth the saw (unless for yourself you are prepared to wear one missing as it makes no difference that you can detect and probably makes for a cheap saw. The market doesn't like missing teeth.) The second bogey for most people is to select a straight plate. I didn't check for either of these issues. However, there were at least three times the number of saws available than I have posted.

Regards
Paul

And they sold for in order of appearance:

$244.50 (I was way out)
Not sold yet (and I made a mistake as it is not a rip saw)
$266.09
$53.77
$29
$79 (This one is a Buy it Now)

Quite a range there.

Regards
Paul

I get the impression that prices are trending up lately. The economy must have improved some.

Originally Posted by rob streeper

I get the impression that prices are trending up lately. The economy must have improved some.

Ebay has gone weirder each year, too.

The auction prices on a lot of things are half the BIN prices listed, but the BIN sellers don't seem to care (not sure why they want to hold items so long).

There are certain things I've shopped for where there are 60 of something listed for double the price that any have sold for in the last three months, and total 3 month sales are only 3 or 4 items.

Not sure how ebay is for professional sellers, but there are no fees for people who don't list too much, and that only encourages people to pollute the listings with absurd BINs. Of course, certain sellers have absurdly long descriptions which go on and on, they set a history of higher than others' prices and people pay them a premium for something relatively average. The power of marketing, I guess. (rash of average atkins backsaws with faint etches selling for $200 or so five years ago from a seller called azmica comes to mind. Along with comments like "this saw is filed with a racing profile".

ahh...OK. does it corner well or something? Does the handle say "Firestone Racing" on it or something?

Rob and DW

Basically I agree with both of you regarding Ebay. Perhaps the American economy has become Trumped up . ( I really must stop that!)

On the Buy it Now situation, I think half of the sellers are dealers who are seeking a higher price to be viable and the other half are people who have no realistic grasp of the market. Some of the products, not just hand saws and other woodworking tools, I am sure I have seen for more than a year. Periodically they are relisted. I cannot see the rationale behind having goods "sitting on the shelf." For the commercial sellers it is surely financial suicide to have so much stock tied up.

Of course sometimes the dealers and those who have no idea of their good's value are the same entity!

Regards
Paul

Early on in the thread I made mention of throwing in a saw or two to hijack the hijackers and bring the thread back on track.

So here is a probably futile attempt to do just that:

Back in post #97 I mentioned a saw for sale that was indeed a Four Hundred. It was a rip saw and 5 1/2ppi, so when I later said it was not a rip saw I must have been looking at something else . This was the saw and now everybody is fully conversant with the nuances of the Four Hundred production you will be able to assess the era.

Atkins 400 on Ebay 1.jpgAtkins 400 on Ebay 3.jpgAtkins 400 on Ebay 2.jpgAtkins 400 on Ebay 5.jpg

Clearly it is before the Borg Warner ownership (1952) as there is no mention of that company. It has the lacquered "Piano" finish. This type of lacquer would, I think, have been a synthetic product and at this stage I can only surmise that it was introduced between the world wars. In fact the 1919 catalogue refers to a "Piano" finish. However the handle shape is the less defined style and I would hazard a guess at post WW2 which would give a seven year window.

This saw, which is a straight back, should have the number 401 on it but again says 400. It does seem to be a common anomaly. Perhaps they ran out of 401 etches.

Just as a small aside, Disston apparently had difficulty sourcing Brazilian Rosewood for a while during and immediately post WW2. They introduced their D42 and D43 models using Walnut handles (and steel hardware) as an "austerity" measure ( ). After 1945 for several years the D-15 had a plywood handle, again presumeably because of difficulty in obtaining the Rosewood. I have no information as to how Atkins coped with Rosewood supplies during this same period. I could guess that because the saw was expensive sales were low during the war years and Atkins had timber stock remaining from the pre-war years, but that doesn't really stack up as you may remember the price of these flagship models had equalised by this time.

The Disstonian Institute information says the D-15 was only listed with a ply handle in the 1947 catalogue and returned to Rosewood in 1951, but the catalogue extract below from 1952 still refers to a "laminated" handle:

1952 Disston Keystone adv 2.jpg

And so you can see the relevant bit:

Disston D-15 laminated handle 1952.jpg




Apart from a few stains on the saw plate the condition is good with one glaring defect. The original owner felt sufficiently possessive of his new saw that he engraved his name on the plate. Bit of a shame that!


Atkins 400 on Ebay 4.jpg

Well, I said the 400 on Ebay would sell for $90. It made $89.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul

just a comment on "lacquer" finishes.
After November 1918, the world was awash with cellulose nitrate -- a component of war time munitions. One of the ways the surplus was used up was as an ingredient of "lacquer". So it's possible Atkins introduced a lacquer piano finish in 1919.