Thread: Australian timbers and tool steels

The blade profile of the Woodcraft socket chisel is exactly the same as the new Pfeil bench chisels.. Both the Pfeil and Woodcraft socket chisel have a very similar feel in hand (I personally like them very much). The steel in the Woodcraft chisel is very good... Very dry. Very easy to sharpen.. Holds up well... Next to eachother - they look like twins except the handle profile is slightly different... After working with both - I prefer the Woodcraft socket chisel.. Perhaps the "link" in this case is Woodcraft.... Where we see 2 chisels with basically the same blade profile and overall dimensions being "exclusively distributed" by the same company.... And if you look at it - the Pfeil woodcraft chisel does not have a standard European bench chisel profile like a Two Cherries... It's more akin to Lie Nielsen's socket chisel...

Here's the thing to keep in mind... Historically the game with everybody in the world was to outsource low end junk and then make high end stuff back home.... It was kinda a national pride thing... Oh - look at how good our things are compared to this foreign junk... Japanese chisels were a good example of that... From the 1940's through the 1980's - cheap export Japanese hardware store chisels were akin to the cheap junk coming out of China for the last 15 years.. But they had a domestic market of extremely fine quality (and extremely expensive) hand made chisels and planes....

Somebody finds out about this stuff and wants to buy that stuff instead - because it's actually good.. And then it becomes a real thing other places too... Hand smithed Japanese chisels and planes... French hand stitched rasps... Lie Nielsen planes.. Domestic Italian industrial equipment... Etc...

And so now - China is exporting 1st quality socket chisels, Stanley plane irons (which are very good), and Marples blue handle chisels... All these are very very good... And somehow the USA (and perhaps Australia) is asleep at the wheel again... Just like in the 1980's when Japan started shipping 1st quality stuff and ate everybody's lunch.... And we have to get back on our game again - just like then...

I'm not sure I'd call those first quality. They're closely made blades with a wide hardness spec and a strange handle that wouldn't make it out of LN or LV's design room. I looked the chisels up to find a review of them and ended up on Rob Cosman's page (Rob sells them, too, of course - he's aligned with WC). I wasn't surprised to see Rob say that the handles were wacky and that he turned them further. It's the kind of dumb detail that there's no real excuse to miss, but woodcraft specializes in that.

In terms of the Pfeil chisels, those were made as a copy of american pattern chisels about 8 or 10 years ago, because the original pfeil chisels were of the long european pattern, and most people here don't prefer that sort of thing. It's not as if they're taking design cues from an "Old" pfeil design. It's curious that they felt the need to stamp the name deeply in the socket like Lie Nielsen does, because nobody else does that. I think there was probably less effort spent on them than WC makes out, but I understand their reasoning (this is my opinion, of course - just suspecting), and that is they are very cheap to make in china and they can mark them up a ton. Their business model couldn't survive on selling $30 AI chisels, despite those chisels being a bit more refined in proportion. Too much of the cost is in the tool, and too little is left for all of the mouths to feed between china and a woodcraft customer who has to pay for brick buildings, advertising, franchise fees, etc.

Not sure where the US or North America is asleep at the wheel on hand tools, same with Japan. The offerings are still a notch above Woodcraft's offerings for various reasons. Of course, WC has a japanese tool arm now that they purchased japan woodworker, but they have absolutely insulting prices on everything they carry. So did JWW before - or WC wouldn't have purchased them (there'd be no room to pay for the business and the ongoing cost of running it).

I feel bad for the customers of both, though. I feel a little bit bad for Pfeil, because the chisels sold through WC could probably come down into a competitive price range if they were sold by someone else. I expect the trend to continue with WC (getting away from domestic and pushing more toward import), but don't expect at any point that they will surpass LV and LN. It doesn't seem to be their aim.


(I did just buy three Chinese plane irons this morning, but off of ali-express - curious about them - they are of course HSS per our discussion above about probably not having the skill or in house know-how to make top quality carbon steel, but as of writing this, the only group left really doing that is LV and hock - if you count O1 as carbon steel. Laminated water hardening steel would really be the example of that, but even in Japan, the know-how to make good tools out of white 1 is disappearing. White 2 makes great tools, though - and more consistently without such a narrow range of success. )

I would personally like to see WC go out of business and have some of the brands that they sell go to other retailers (especially pfeil). The few times I've set foot in a WC store in the last 10 years, I've struggled to buy anything. I did buy LN planes at one years ago here, but it went out of business, and since then, tools of that sort have pretty much disappeared from their stores. FWIW, Rockler is a mile up the road from me, and I also struggle to get anything there other than screws. They have completely abandoned hand tools, but probably are thriving by importing a bunch plastic and aluminum jiggy-type stuff from China. It's always appealing to beginners - as it was to me when I started and before I got into hand tools. T-track and adjustable fence devices for everyone).

(quite like the looks of those pfiel chisels, by the way. I hope that they clear them out if they can't sell them. There are a lot of lower cost retailers of pfeil tools in canada, but those chisels aren't available from them and $230 that WC wants is a little off the mark)

FWIW, I bought a set of chisels from them years and years ago when they started making them, equivalent to the ones they're selling for $89.99 for 6 now (but they were marked down to $50). Their edges were a bit bulky, but they were otherwise just fine (better sharpening and less gooey than Narex, etc). I turn through a lot of stuff out of curiosity and they're now gone, but I thought they were pretty good at that price. If i'd have kept them, I'd have ground them down on the edges a bit.

Still would rather have the pfeils, and hope to see them clearing them out as they have most of the other western-made chisels they used to carry.

Predictable behavior pattern - found a coupon for the pfeil chisels and bought them.

( i really like pfeil's carving tools and remember the steel that is in their bulky/thin - strange combination of words there, but you know what I'm talking about if you look at the edges of their narrow chisel in the old euro pattern - european pattern chisels ).

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

When I was a child my cheap and nasty toys were "made in Japan." They were crap Today "made in Japan is synonymous with excellence. China has moved inexorably out of the crap zone and almost seamlessly into to the whatever you want at whatever price you want zone.

Valid point, but we've long had a saying that covers this: 'You get what you pay for.'

Hmmm... Japanese domestics are synonymous with excellence, as are a fair percentage of their exports. There are still a few exports that are crap, but I've noticed a disturbing trend for Western makers to copy Japanese designs poorly and market them as Japanese <whatevers>.

A couple of friends of mine 'hate' ryobas and dozukis for example. A quick look at the tools they'd based their decisions on and under the plastic, imitation bamboo handle wrap I found a US brand mark on the shank. Huh.

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

A couple of friends of mine 'hate' ryobas and dozukis for example. A quick look at the tools they'd based their decisions on and under the plastic, imitation bamboo handle wrap I found a US brand mark on the shank. Huh.

we don't have those here in the US. We do have saws with US brand names on them, but if they are japanese style, they are made in japan despite the US brand mark.

Unless you go really cheap, and then they are indeterminate brand and made in china.

There are impulse hardened tooth hand saws (western style) made in the usa, but that's about it.

Well, I got the Pfeil bench chisels in the mail yesterday. I think I have somewhere around 20-25 sets of chisels right now (just sort of a thing, or as Todd Hughes used to say about things he had 100 of "i sort of collect these, I guess"). They are really nicely made chisels!!

WC has a coupon for anyone who signs up on email, and it makes their price only about 10% higher than anyone else's instead of 20%.

Strange thing with the lands being the same size from end to end (which I see WC copied on theirs). I'd prefer if they were gradual at the business end and tapering thicker, but whatever.

Carving style handles, too, but really well finished.

I've got to make a lending library for the neighborhood (but it's mostly plywood), hopefully I'll get a chance to use the chisels a little bit on making the door and trim.

The amount of junk email that comes with a woodcraft email signup is almost unbelievable, though.

Originally Posted by D.W.

Well, I got the Pfeil bench chisels in the mail yesterday. I think I have somewhere around 20-25 sets of chisels right now (just sort of a thing, or as Todd Hughes used to say about things he had 100 of "i sort of collect these, I guess"). They are really nicely made chisels!!

Strange thing with the lands being the same size from end to end (which I see WC copied on theirs). I'd prefer if they were gradual at the business end and tapering thicker, but whatever.

They are both copying Lie Nielsen..

I have a distinct feeling that these companies know their market is mostly to people who already buy their products... And so they have to change up their product line every few years so they can sell you and me another set of chisels to go with the 7 sets of chisels I already have...

Kinda like carving gouges, and new alloy plane irons.. If you can come up with a new and improved plane iron every 5 or 8 years - you can get another sale out of folks like you and I - who already own a couple irons for every plane we own. . And even better - they can circle back around and re-release a traditional plain HCS iron and then sell a whole set of those to everybody who is now tired of the super fancy pants irons...

I mean seriously - how did Humanity survive with THE SAME plane irons for the better part of 300 years... And no wonder Stanley doesn't really sell any significant quantity of replacement plane irons except down in Australia when they took over Titan and marketed their line of HSS irons - a normal iron lasts nearly forever if you don't damage it... I have irons coming up on 90 years old that still have the majority of their sharpening life left...

To be fair, Lie Nielsen didn't come up with that, either. Their chisels are just copies with some simplification for their benefit (A2 steel and a handle without a ring because it's easier to put hornbeam in a duplicator lathe and make a handle without any fixtures).

I like the tapered sides better, but see at least as far back as early Ward aristocrats, there were delicate side bevels all the way up a chisel.

It's a figment of peoples' imaginations these days that those chisels need to have a gradual bevel all the way up, but it's probably also a matter of being easier to produce and mill doing that than making a gradual taper.

The positive things for the pfeil chisels over LN are:
1) the steel is simpler
2) the chisels are tang chisels (socket chisels are construction tools, not cabinetmaking tools)

And, they're cheaper. If someone else sold pfeil, they'd be much cheaper.

Given that those chisels are generally an american market thing, I'd suspect that pfeil's original euro chisels didn't sell that well when LN chisels came out. I got into woodworking around the same time LN was sort of ramping up into things other than block planes, bench planes and edge trimming planes. There was a lot of stock put into FWW reviews "oh, just read their reviews and buy what they suggest". Those reviews have all kinds of stupidity in them, and leave people believing there is something in lie nielsen's chisels that they won't find in a vintage stanley chisel. that is, of course, not true other than initial preparation and in some cases, a tick or two difference in hardness (day to day use in the states, at least, would favor a chisel made like the stanley more than the LN).

anyway, a friend of mine bought the euro pfeil chisels (the long ones), and didn't like the handles. No experienced worker grips chisels like a pencil, but that was the thing about ten years ago, so everyone wanted a "stout chisel" that had the balance down in the blade instead of up at the handle. LN makes a chisel like that, and the next magazine recommends the LN chisels instead of pfeil, the advertisers are happy and woodcraft starts selling LN chisels. They lose LN, and probably give pfiel the orders to make a chisel that has a similar profile because every beginner thinks the chisel needs to be perfect with tiny lands to do good work.

(underneath all of this is the fact that 50 years ago, Marples made the edges of plastic handled chisels like that, too - but again, they're long like euro chisels and people don't like the handles because they think the whole chisel is too long).

Long story short, they're all good, none are original, and the one thing lost in the shuffle is a good pure tang chisel with a relatively light blade and handle, nice style, high finish level, a very simple steel and a forged bolster that isn't just a round die-pressed thing. But there are plenty of options from $100 on up that would satisfy.

I'm not going to buy any more sets of chisels (until I do for no reason again), but I'd be curious about the $65 sets of "bailey" chisels. they're a bit on the large side, but you can modify their bulky handles and grind the lands down in a half hour or an hour. I'll bet they're functionally as good as anything else then.

My favorite of everything offered right now is still the Iles chisels, which seem to be only in intermittent stock. They're a bargain for what they are if bought directly from the UK without VAT. 6 cost me about $165 or so with shipping.

As far as carving tools go, the pfeil chisels are functionally about as good as anything ever made. They are forged and ground to a nice profile and sharpen easily and hold their edge well. There are some others (I have a gaggle of henry taylor chisels that come to mind) that went through a rough patch and got pretty bulky. Woe be to the person who gets A2 carving chisels or anything complex, they'd be turds. Addis are often held up as the gold standard, and they are well finished, but even those from time to time lack tempering and can be overhard - and they're often pretty much used up by the time they show up on ebay - especially the spoons, etc. Current pfeil are great. I just wish someone else sold them.

On the Stanley Bailey chisels... The steel is the same EN31 used on the rest of their Sheffield made line... Which is to say very good stuff if you like a medium alloy bearing steel that falls in with 52100. Their chisels have the same longer blades as the UK pattern Dynagrip and Fat Max series - which is more of a conventional non-thin bevel bench chisel.

If you want to test out the steel - buy a Fat Max at the hardware store..... The steel is generally good stuff that is properly hardened and tempered and very consistent for the price:... And their steel does hold up well under the use of a hammer... It does have more of a gummy "alloy steel" feel on the stones, but not enough alloy to cause sharpening trauma...

Overall - I would rank them as a solid competitor to current production Marples blue handle chisels - which are also very good for the price.. You could be happy with either of these for a long time. Pick the Marples if you want more of a conventional low alloy HCS.. Either of these would be a good "real" chisel set when you are ready to upgrade from cheap hardware/Aldi/Harbor Freight store fare...

FIL bought me those fatmax chisels (the rubber handled ones - or I should say acetate and rubber with steel cap) long long ago when they first came out. I still have them. They're actually perfectly fine for just about anything, but have the bulky profile you'd expect on this type of chisel and (the thing that dooms them for general day to day work) the acetate handles are extremely heavy (not a surprise given that they're jobsite chisels and I'm sure they expect people will hit them with claw hammers, etc, or whatever they have in their hands at the time they pick up the chisel).

I don't know when I'm going to end up unloading all of my chisels. I'll get bored with them at some point, so knowing that will occur, I'm deferring on buying anything else at this point.

(I do think this is the real value point for chisels, though - simple drop forged tang-socket-ish chisels with no frills. I think beginners should be taught to hone the sides of a cheap chisel or two down to do close-in work if they're not satisfied with the chisels they got, and the advice to seek harder chisels if sharpening is arduous is not particularly helpful. Eventually, you have to learn to sharpen well and quickly, and these types of chisels are better for that than something that's very particular about the stone you use or how well you grind).

Got a chance to use the pfeil chisels last night. LOVE their proportions - they're balanced right in the middle of the chisel where the bolster would be (if they had one). Tiny bit rubbery on the sharpening stones compared to older chisels, but that's expected given the era.

Really great.

They have a tiny strange rounding from the back side, as if they gave them a light final buffing all over, but it's off with just a tiny bit of edge removal and the rest of the chisel is very flat. I already spend little time prepping a chisel, but I think hand grinding that off with a 1k stone and then polishing the edge and back briefly may have been two minutes. Spent more time card scraping the facets on the wooden handle (I think they may have finished them with a product called "grain raiser plus turbo edition" or something. The facets are rough as a cob, and look to be hand cut on some kind of machine with a radius (each facet isn't totally flat, they're actually a tiny bit hollow).

I do like the raw wood feel of the handles. The contour is very comfortable in my hand.. The more I use polished handles - the more I like them unpolished.

Well, leave them out in the rain for a day :P

Seriously, a very nice chisel, though. Really nice.