Thread: Carcase saw vs handsaw

A carcase saw is yet another type of a back saw. Some will claim that it is typically smaller than the tenon saw, but I guess that both names can be correctly applied to both saws. I believe that the term carcase saw was renewed and promoted for marketing purposes, and that it is now used to convince hobbyists that they need more saws.

I do find Chris's blog informative and entertaining. It is full of useful advises, helpful hints and nice reviews. However, it is good to remember that his supply of toys depends, at least partially, on his ability to "sell" them, and he seems to be extremely good at that. While I do trust his honesty, I believe that most modern hobbyist lack more in skills than in tools, and that they need more practice first and extra saws second. I would also be happy to pay $250 to attend his workshop.

I would suggest that if you want to get into hand tools and only have a dovetail saw, a carcase or tenon saw filed cross-cut will probably be more useful than a second dovetail saw. In fact, unless you are making mainly small objects, I believe that a second dovetail saw should be fairly down on the wish list.

I agree that a bigger saw could easily be more useful than a crosscut dovetail saw, but where I struggle is in buying tools which require work to get them set up - without knowing the destination, it can be difficult to undertake the journey. The advantage with buying Veritas tools is that they come ready to use, at a sensible price.

I do have a tenon saw of reasonable quality, but it needs a fair amount of work, which 1. I don't have time to do, and 2. I don't have the knowledge and skills to do. For those reasons I'm happy to pay more for tools which work so that I can get on with practicing how to use them.

So the carcase saw and the tenon saw are back saws filed crosscut and rip, whereas a 'handsaw' does not have back. Is that it?

Is he assuming that the handsaw is filed, what? Crosscut or rip?

And where can I buy a decent one in the $100 range?

If the saw is not in a really bad state, you may want to look for a local saw doctor. For a very reasonable price they could bring your saw to a working condition. I doubt they will clean rust or straighten a kinked blade, but they will sharpen and set the saw.

I hope I did not make the impression that I oppose to new tools. If you do not enjoy restoring old tools, buy them new. I am not even against buying many tools. I only think it is important to know whether we buy them for the pleasure of ownership or out of need. A first (working) tenon saw is needed. For most of us, the second is not.

I manged to get an old spear and jackson saw, after sanding some of the rust off and putting a coat of varnish over the handle it started to look okay. Then I took it in to the local saw doctor and for 20 they fixed up the teeth and now it's my favourite saw to cut with

If you look at some of the hand tool catalogs you see all sorts of saws called all sorts of things.

As in all areas of woodworking... don't start with the catalog and pick out tools you might need... start with your project and buy tools you need.

Think about common tasks...
I hand cut tenons - so I bought 14" crosscut and 14" rip tenon saws.
I prefer larger tools and make large pieces so I bought the larger 14" saws with 4" cut.
I hand cut dovetails - so this week I ordered a 9" dovetail saw cause the tenon saw gets heavy.
I also have a coping saw.

I rip and cross cut large pieces mostly with power tools... so I have cheap stanley tenon and panel saw for when I need it.

A little off topic... but my point is... it doesn't matter what it's call carcuss or tennon or sash or whatever... base your decisions around the job.

Good points, Bozinoz, and others. Thanks. A quick bit of research suggests there's little between the $10 orange horror at the big green shed, and the $200 + range at Wenzloff et al.

After the prompt from Bozinoz, I think, I use the Veritas dovetail saw for ripping, including dovetails and tenons, and the matching crosscut saw will be good for shoulders of tenons, I use a couple of good big old handsaws that I got sharpened commercially for rough cutting, and power tools for a lot of big stuff, but what I'm missing is a 'panel' saw or similar for cutting, say the recycled 38x150 tas oak I am turning into a hall table. Since I don't have $200 for a Wenzloff, and I don't use it much, I might drop my standards and compromise with a $10 orange horror for the small amount of work it'll get.

I can't believe I just wrote that. That seems like a step 5 years backwards to the beginning of this journey! I'm off to open a cold beer.

Oh, I missed out the coping saw, fret saw, flush cut saw and the 3 japanese pull saws I'm picking up this week. I know the n+1 rule, but I seem to own quite a few saws already.

Tricky.

Although I don't have one personally, all reviews I've read point to the veritas models as the best value.

The amount of work I do the $25 stanely was a better option than a $350 LN panel saw.

That being said... I'm looking forward to my Wenzloff Dovetail arriving in the mail...

Hey hancock.

Why not poke around the old wares shops, markets etc for a good old Disston or Spear and Jackson. I rarely pay more than $5 for an old handsaw (backsaws seem to be a bit more strangely) and with a little bit of elbow grease (and a certain amount of fling) I have a very good saw that I can sharpen when it goes blunt. As a bit of a recycle/reuse nut I have trouble forking out my dosh for new tools (much as I would like to own a few LN or LV tools). Lack of said resource is another reason for my rust hunting.

Cheerio,
Virg.

Thanks, Virgil. I do have a few rusty saws that I've picked up over the last couple of years, and I've had a couple sharpened commercially, and they do ok for rough work. Saw sharpening is on my list of things to learn, but in the meantime I'd like to get on with making stuff.

Originally Posted by rhancock

...........

On his list, amongst others there's a list of saws:
Saws
Handsaw (filed crosscut 7pt. or 8 pt.)
Carcase saw (filed crosscut)
Tenon saw (filed rip)
Flush-cut saw
Bench hook
Coping saw

Which is fine, except, what's the difference between a "Handsaw (crosscut) and Carcase saw (crosscut)?

If he were nearer, I'd get someone to splash $250 on a birthday present and go to the class, as I think it'd be really useful.

And next question, while we're on the subject, which saw should I buy? I already have a Veritas dovetail (rip) saw and I'm going to buy a matching crosscut saw, but I'd like a bigger saw for bigger cuts, ideally one rip and one crosscut. I don't want to buy an old one and refurbish it, but I'll buy one someone else has refurbished. Otherwise I want to buy a new one.

There is only one similarity between the Handsaw (filed crosscut) and the Carcase saw (filed crosscut) .... that's right, they are both filed crosscut. Beyond that they are a world apart.

The crosscut handsaw is generally 22-24" long, and has coarse teeth (7-8 tpi). It is used for rough cutting, such as wide boards. I have a couple of these saws, including a shorter half-back version (18") for use at the bench.

The carcase saw is for joinery, such as tenon shoulders. It is a backsaw (ie reinforced), generally about 11-12" long and with fine teeth (11-12 tpi). It is possible to use a dovetail saw in its place, but the rip teeth of the latter will not cut as fine across the grain (there are ways past that, of course).

Which carcase saw to buy? The Veritas is approx 9" long, which I consider just a little short for my liking and has too many teeth (16 tpi). Still, it is probably the best bang for the buck in the quality saws. The one I have is 11" long, and yes I do like using it. And no, it would not work for tenon cheeks (far tooooo slow).

The alternative is a 12" Disston crosscut backsaw that you can rehab with new teeth (they generally are rip and about 11 tpi).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks, Derek - clear and precise, as ever.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

The alternative is a 12" Disston crosscut backsaw that you can rehab with new teeth (they generally are rip and about 11 tpi).

That's what I use. Works a treat.

Cheers,
Virg.

Richard - the plethora of saw shapes & sizes that is & was available is due as much to the wide range of personal preferences as it is to the suitability of any particular tool for any particular function, IMO. You can cover most joinery tasks with 2 or 3 saws quite well. It's nice to have a selection of saws so that you can more exactly fit the saw to the job, but when you consider how often you may do some tasks, it certainly isn't cost or time effective to get too carried away (unless, like some of us, you just want to! ). If you observe the rule that you need a minimum of somewhere between 4 & 6 teeth in the cut (depends a bit on the wood being sawn), that gives you an idea of what minimum pitch you need, based on what sizes you saw most. It's nice to have rips & crosscuts for some jobs, but with small teeth, the differences in performance can be surprisingly small - depending somewhat on the wood being sawn.

On the opposite end of the scale, you don't want too many teeth in the cut either, as they fill with sawdust before exiting, & slow-down or stop cutting, which makes the task more difficult & harder to control. So it's useful to have fine- & coarse-pitched saws. How many teeth in a cut is TOO many depends a bit on the wood & a little bit on the tooth profile (more aggressive profiles fill faster), but I would not normally choose an 18 tpi saw for cutting anything more than about 30mm wide, for e.g. Of course I sometimes do, when making a single cut & the saw is in my hand & I'm too lazy to replace it & get the more appropraiately-sized one out.

But that's all too clinical, I can't imagine anyone actually measures the wood & counts the saw teeth for each cut! What most of us do is get used to a few saws that do the sorts of jobs we do most often very well, and stick with them. Part of doing the job well is simply feeling the saw sits right in your hand & is suitably sized to the task - i.e. you can see what you are doing with it. So if you frequently think that the saw you are using to do X seems a bit big & clumsy, or tears out the wood too much, then you would probably do better & feel happier with a less-bulky, smaller-pitched saw. And so on.

Having experimented with many saws of different sizes, blade thicknesses, tooth profiles & pitches, I've settled on a few that are my "go tos", for the typical work I do. I have several others that I use occasionally, but there are only about 3 or 4 saws that I feel I couldn't live without. However, I doubt many other people would choose all of those as their favourites - that really is a very personal decision.

Maybe you should drop around some Sunday arvo & test-drive a few & see if any particular size or pitch really suits your style.....?

Cheers,