Thread: cheap chisels made from hard steel??

In the recent past I've done some studies of the hardness of saw blades (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f278/hardening-sawplates-182165) and I'm currently working on hardness testing of the type of files used for sharpening saws (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f278/file-hardness-measurements-194349) and I've been thinking of testing the hardness of chisels because I have a pretty broad range of types and grades. When I'm done with the file testing I'll start on the chisels.
Hardness of woodworking tools seems to be a much discussed but little tested area, probably because of the expense of the testers and the time/complexity of doing the work.

Kuffy, look out for Japanese bench chisels. Even the cheap ones will outperform many expensive Western steels. I think that Carbatec sell a lower range around the $50 each mark. You do not need more than a couple to start. They are decent chisels and will hold an edge a long time in hard woods.

http://www.carbatec.com.au/japanese-butt-chisels_c7250

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks derek, I was looking at western chisels, for no particular reason. A quick search of japanese chisels brings HSS chisels into my sights. Without knowing much about the steels and hardness ratings etc, I figure if I can machine 900lm of vic ash in a moulder using hss knives before regrinding, I reckon I can use hss chisels and get good edge durability....until one of those pesky nails jumps out at me and beats up my chisel!!!

In general, the advantage of HSS chisels is that they may be ground on a bench grinder without fear of overheating. It is unlikely that they will attain the sharp edge of a traditional laminated Japanese blade. The HSS are essentially worksite tools.

I have one HSS chisel (in PM steel), which is exceptionally hard and a bugger to hone. It is great when you want an edge to deal with exceptionally hard and abrasive woods, and last and last, but I would not wish all my chisels to be like this. Too much work when the edge dulls. The average standard laminated chisel is designed to be freehand sharpened (honing the full bevel) but many use a honing guide (creating a secondary bevel), and I am not adverse to hollow grinding the bench variety on a Tormek (it stays cool). These blades are made up of a softer iron (traditionally) but likely mild steel (in the cheaper version) backing laminated to a very hard cutting edge.

Although some still view these chisel as best on soft woods, I have used them on Australian hardwoods for many years. They outlast everything. Here is an example: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...sCompared.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

get some aussie made (out of production) Titans
you'll have to look around and probably buy the odd one on ebay but the steel is considered by many to be of good quality

I placed an order for a few of the semi-hss chisels from toolsfromjapan (Tattslotto said they will pay for them this week ). a 6mm, 12mm, and 18mm. Hopefully they can stand up to a days worth of abuse so i dont need to stop what im doing mid-run and sharpen. I dont mind sharpening after the day is done and there is nothing on TV, its a quiet activity which doesnt affect the neighbours.

Originally Posted by Sawdust Maker

get some aussie made (out of production) Titans.....

Not a bad suggestion, SM., though you are right, they are getting hard to find & the price has gone up a lot in the last few years. Titans are nothing like as hard as the chisels Derek is recommending, and won't perform the same way if used for paring end grain on tough woods, but they are certainly easy to sharpen, & survive being pounded into bone-hard woods remarkably well. It seems like a contradiction, but I've demonstrated it to myself numerous times. My Titans will go on cutting wood for a practical length of time at grind/hone angles that would be the death of my A2 chisels after a few hits. Particularly for someone starting out, I think not-so-hard chisels are a lot easier to learn to sharpen well. Once you become a proficient sharpener, you can move on to harder steels, or better still, avoid tool-destroying woods as much as possible, like I do....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by rob streeper

In the recent past I've done some studies of the hardness of saw blades (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f278/hardening-sawplates-182165) and I'm currently working on hardness testing of the type of files used for sharpening saws (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f278/file-hardness-measurements-194349) and I've been thinking of testing the hardness of chisels because I have a pretty broad range of types and grades. When I'm done with the file testing I'll start on the chisels.
Hardness of woodworking tools seems to be a much discussed but little tested area, probably because of the expense of the testers and the time/complexity of doing the work.

Do the chisels Rob, especially if you can get a hold of some current makes. It doesn't ruin them and the results are interesting.

A friend and I traded some time on a very expensive tester (well, we didn't trade our time, the guy who works the tester worked it for us) and we put western and japanese chisels through the tester. I don't remember what the tester was, it might have been a versitron.

Of notable items, an iyoroi mortise chisel tested average of 61 (despite their claims of 64 - that's a very large difference), some vintage stanleys were around 59 and a vintage witherby that I had and that I couldn't get to hold an edge tested 52. It was one of the nicely shaped beveled light firmers that's really shiny, uncommon for a witherby. May have been an early experiment with air hardening steels or some kind of chrome vanadium stee.

I don't remember the other few we had, nothing was notable.

I have a whole set of iyoroi mokume chisels, I'd estimate that they are similar hardness to the mortise chisel I tested. I don't hate that, though, they hold up really well, sharpen very easily and are a better match for natural japanese stones than most of the very hard chisels that are probably the true 65 hardness they claim. Those hard chisels are too hard for the silicon dioxide in the natural stones, the sharpening contest comes up a draw and only the soft backing iron on the chisels is abraded significantly by the stones.

I think not much hardness testing is done because there's not a whole lot to learn from it from various brands, other than confirmation of observations. I can tell if a chisel is nice to use by using it and sharpening it for a couple of weeks. Hardness spec in catalogs is more for snagging beginners.

Originally Posted by Kuffy

I placed an order for a few of the semi-hss chisels from toolsfromjapan (Tattslotto said they will pay for them this week ). a 6mm, 12mm, and 18mm. Hopefully they can stand up to a days worth of abuse so i dont need to stop what im doing mid-run and sharpen. I dont mind sharpening after the day is done and there is nothing on TV, its a quiet activity which doesnt affect the neighbours.

I have two of those (semi) and one yxr7 chisel from stu. The latter is what derek is talking about. They are both easy to sharpen with diamonds, but it takes a pretty fine final step to get an edge comparable to what you'd expect from a traditional japanese tool. I ultimately don't use them much, but that's more a function of having too many chisels in general.

Iyoroi also makes the yxr7 chisels, and cheap, but the only person I know of selling them is fujibato (cheap, but keeping in mind that you'd need a loose diamond setup to get a nice edge out of them).

I think you made a good choice with a couple of the semi-hss chisels. They have a nice thin profile, are tough and are uncomplicated.