Thread: coping fret jewellers

Have you read this thread by Derek, https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/new-concepts-fretsaw-reviewed-121699/?

I am thinking it must be one of the best fret/jewelers saw in the market today.

Gunn

I use a Carbatech jewelers saw for fine cutting of brass and ally.

I bought the blades for it from AJS; http://jewellerssupplies.com.au/imag...awing_2010.pdf

I use the 0 or 1 grade blades (48 or 52 TPI).

Cheers

Originally Posted by dynoforce

Have you read this thread by Derek, https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/new-concepts-fretsaw-reviewed-121699/?

I am thinking it must be one of the best fret/jewelers saw in the market today.

Gunn

It certainly isn't the cheapest!

cheers,
B-D.

Originally Posted by dynoforce

Have you read this thread by Derek, https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/new-concepts-fretsaw-reviewed-121699/?

I am thinking it must be one of the best fret/jewelers saw in the market today.

Gunn

Haven't read that, but the Knew concept stuff sure is out of my price range.

Originally Posted by BobL

I use a Carbatech jewelers saw for fine cutting of brass and ally.

I bought the blades for it from AJS; http://jewellerssupplies.com.au/imag...awing_2010.pdf

I use the 0 or 1 grade blades (48 or 52 TPI).

Cheers

Thanks Bob. I will have a look at that one.

Cheers
Michael

Originally Posted by mic-d

Haven't read that, but the Knew concept stuff sure is out of my price range.

It was too rich for me as well but a good read. Definitely appreciate Derek sharing it here.

Reminds me a lot of the evolution of materials used on bicycle frames, i.e. steel frames followed by aluminum then titanium. I am still riding my old steel (4130 chromoly) frame bicycle.

I have an Olson jewelers saw similar to the one from Carbatec for cutting dovetails. I think the tensioning screw at the toe of the saw makes a huge difference.

Cheers

Gunn

Ah someone with more sense than money!
One person who really knows jewellers saws on this forum is Lightwood - he is a jeweller of renown.
Cheers,
Jim

Originally Posted by jimbur

Ah someone with more sense than money!
One person who really knows jewellers saws on this forum is Lightwood - he is a jeweller of renown.
Cheers,
Jim

Jim,
your cheque is in the mail
For years I've used German made spring steel saw-frames in a couple of sizes.
No connection with this company other than as a customer for 35 years...
www.koodak.com.au/product.php?c2ID=245
These saws are avaialable through most of the jewellers supply houses in Australia.
Twin Plaza, AJS, Tool World MCE. are in Melbourne city.
The blades I use are Vallorbe round back Jewellers saw blades for metal.
I'm a very firm believer in mastering the older style tools, to be as good with them as the master's of old.
I read from time to time how it is impossible to do something by hand with a coping saw or fret saw and chuckle to myself...(and sometime out loud) because it is being written by someone who can't use one, and hasn't the skill or inclination to learn or ask how it can be done.
Here are a few pictures from a plane I restored years ago. I wanted to open the throat 0.5mm, so cut a sliver 0.1mm wide across the throat.
Instant gratification is probably available with some new product, but I would advice against the mind set that is "what can I do, or where can I buy a tool that requires less hand skill" it will take you off the righteous path

Take the time to learn to use one of these saws, and if you want to see what can be done with them, take a walk through any museum in the world looking for holes in metal and wood with fancy patterns cut out. None of them were done with a titanium saw.
Like all hand/arm/foot/leg skills learned there is a multiplier effect, it will enable the hand and brain to become more connected, and other tools that were a struggle to control with accuracy will magically be tamed.

Regards,
Peter

There are continuing developments with the Knew Concepts fretsaw. The frame depth can be reduced as there is a new blade holder coming out which can alter the angle of the blade. I have not yet seen it. However this will eventually cause the price to drop as the frame can become shallower. Still, at around $50 I do not see this as an expensive saw. Buying a cheap Eclipse from Bunnings is likely to cost you $30. The difference between these saws is night-and-day. Peter, would you like to borrow one of mine to try out, and post your thoughts here.

I recommended the 18 tpi Eclipse blades to Lee Marshall (at KC). He tested them out and concluded that they were excellent - perfect for sawing the waste between dovetails - and will now fit these as standard to the KC fretsaw. I get mine from Bunnings.

Declaimer: I have no vested interest in the KC saw other than providing input into the design, and wishing Lee all the best in the world as he is one of the Goood Guys.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by lightwood

Jim,
your cheque is in the mail
For years I've used German made spring steel saw-frames in a couple of sizes.
No connection with this company other than as a customer for 35 years...
www.koodak.com.au/product.php?c2ID=245
These saws are avaialable through most of the jewellers supply houses in Australia.
Twin Plaza, AJS, Tool World MCE. are in Melbourne city.
The blades I use are Vallorbe round back Jewellers saw blades for metal.
I'm a very firm believer in mastering the older style tools, to be as good with them as the master's of old.
I read from time to time how it is impossible to do something by hand with a coping saw or fret saw and chuckle to myself...(and sometime out loud) because it is being written by someone who can't use one, and hasn't the skill or inclination to learn or ask how it can be done.
Here are a few pictures from a plane I restored years ago. I wanted to open the throat 0.5mm, so cut a sliver 0.1mm wide across the throat.
Instant gratification is probably available with some new product, but I would advice against the mind set that is "what can I do, or where can I buy a tool that requires less hand skill" it will take you off the righteous path

Take the time to learn to use one of these saws, and if you want to see what can be done with them, take a walk through any museum in the world looking for holes in metal and wood with fancy patterns cut out. None of them were done with a titanium saw.
Like all hand/arm/foot/leg skills learned there is a multiplier effect, it will enable the hand and brain to become more connected, and other tools that were a struggle to control with accuracy will magically be tamed.

Regards,
Peter

Thank you for your reply Peter, I will follow up that company's products. The plane mouth modification is unbelievable, a superhuman effort.

Cheers
Michael

Originally Posted by derekcohen

The difference between these saws is night-and-day. Peter, would you like to borrow one of mine to try out, and post your thoughts here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek,
But I already have all the daylight I need. What I lack now are the eyes I had 20 years ago
Perhaps that red colour really is the answer
In my daily use of the saw, I do work not easily seen because it is under gemstones, but often the back holes are cut as well, and that is a measure of the quality of the work done, and the skill of the jeweller.
If the argument is that you need less skill with another tool, I believe we might part ways in philosophy right there. I want to refine my skill with every tool I use and not choose a tool because it might assist a novice with a quick result, or compensate for inadequate technique.
Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter

I have a bunch of dovetail saws. I have used many more. The range is wide in terms of both quality and price. I can cut pretty good dovetails with just about anything. Nevertheless I still prefer to use a decent saw than a poor saw. I can master the poor saw, but that does not mean I have to use it.

The increased tension of the KC fretsaw translates into less deflection of the blade, and this leads to better control.

I think that you are reacting to any mention of a "better" tool as if someone was suggesting that the tool is more important than the handskill behind it. My recommendation of a better tool is is just that - a better tool, not a replacement for handskills. As far as I am concerned woodworking is more fun when it is about handskills. Just that sometimes handskills improve faster with better handtools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Hi Peter

I consider you a master with a handtool such as a fretsaw. You are a professional - you make your living at this, and have done so for a long time - and I expect that there is little for you to learn in this regard. I have seen your work, and it is magnificent.

Now with all due respect, there is a difference between your skills and the average forum member, and this is relevant. For you to say that one should master whatever saw one has and not bother with anything better, or consider upgrading, well that strikes me as arrogant. Your hobby is building tools. You make gorgeous infill planes. You have made saws as well. Are you saying that these are just jewellery and for a cabinet, or that they have a purpose in the workshop? Or should we all just make do with a lesser quality handplane (or any other tool) until it is mastered, because that is the goal of tool use? I don't understand how you can do one thing and say another.

I have a bunch of dovetail saws. I have used many more. The range is wide in terms of both quality and price. I can cut pretty good dovetails with just about anything. Nevertheless I still prefer to use a decent saw than a poor saw. I can master the poor saw, but that does not mean I have to use it.

The Knew Concepts fretsaw may not offer anything to you, but it is a saw that is easier to use that others I own. The increased tension it manages translates into less deflection of the blade, and this leads to better control.

I think that you are reacting to any mention of a "better" tool as if someone was suggesting that the tool is more important than the handskill behind it. My recommendation of a better tool is is just that - a better tool, not a replacement for handskills. As far as I am concerned woodworking is more fun when it is about handskills. Just that sometimes handskills improve faster with better handtools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,
Although I have lots of issues with what you have written, I'm not inclined, or a combative enough mood to reply to this.
I think I'll just pass.
Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter

Reading what I wrote it came out stronger than I meant it to. I was not intending to be combative. I apologise if it sounded that way.

All I want to emphasise is that good handtools are just that - good handtools. Nothing can replace good handskills. Still, good handtools deserve their due recognition.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's a relief. I was surprised at the tenor of your initial reply Derek.
I suggested Peter was the person to ask because he was the most experienced person I know who uses jewellers' saws on a regular basis and as such would be expected to know quality and performance.
Looking at the two websites and allowing for postage and exchange rates, the German made saw used by jewellers around the world comes out at not much more than half the Knew Concepts one. About the same price as Derek suggested for a Bunning's Eclipse. That struck me as exceptional value for money which was a point raised early in the thread.
Many of us are on limited budgets and have to get the best we can afford which is why advice on these forums is so useful. It's no use having the most expensive set of tools available if all you can then afford is recycled radiata.
Cheers,
Jim