Thread: Turning to the dark side - hand planes

... if I go buy my 3rd Tormek, it won't be a matter of changing wheels. Grey stone first for shaping, secondary sharpening on the black wheel then onto the 5000 grit stone. It's all theory at this stage.

Jeff, the mind boggles at the thought of 3 Tormeks in a row!!!

And you know what? It will not work. Sorry.

What your plan does not take into account is that the wheels wear. Not only do they go out of square and require re-levelling, they also require surfacing as the pores clog with metal. As a result of upkeep, the wheels end up being different diameters. You will then be required to re-set the angle of the blade holder to continue honing on the same portion of the blade, or if you choose to add a secondary bevel.

You need to think as a flat worker when using flat tools.

There is a strategy I can recommend if you plan to use a honing guide, and another if you intend to freehand sharpen. Both methods begin with grinding a primary bevel, and the grit of this is not really that relevant. I argue that a smoother grit produces a straighter bevel, but then I also argue that there is a compromise needed to achieve the best smoothness at the most reasonably speedy grind. One can either have very smooth or very fast, but not both. My compromise is a 180 grit CBN wheel. Your 240 CBN is vulnerable to burning blades (generates heat) and being slower than desirable.

If you choose to go down the honing guide path, you need a decent honing guide. My choice would be either the CNC-machined Henry Eckert (HE) guide (which is an upgraded Eclipse) at $69, or the more expensive LN guide at $239. Both available from LN Australia. I demonstrate tools for LN when they at the Perth Wood Shows, so I have much experience using both guides. The HE guide is incredible value for money. The LN is classy (yes, I have one for BU planes).

If you choose to freehand, then you are already set up. Just use the Tormek with a 220 grit setting (grey wheel). You can safely grind to the edge of the blade at the angle you choose (say 30 degrees for all blades), and then just freehand on the hollow - it acts as a jig.

You need three waterstones regardless of what method you use: 1000 grit, +/-5000 grit, and +/-10-15000 grit. My recommendation is a Shapton Pro 1000, Sigma 6000 and Sigma 13000 (this is what I use). They are available from Tools from Japan.

Regards from Perth

Derek

DW,

I hear what you are saying. All I know from the last couple of days is that backlash on my Stanley planes compared to my Clifton smoother is almost a deal breaker. And you are probably correct in saying that the skill level is the break-even point. All I want is to dial in a certain depth of cut and make it happen. Bedrocks v. Baileys? Adustable mouths? That is another possible thread.

I cop it elsewhere on the forum when I urge woodies to do their best, not take shortcuts etc. It is, at least for me, a balancing act.

But don't get me wrong: my woodturning - which is so very much alike with hand tools - relies 100% with tool control. Sure, you can use an Easy Beader but ultimately, such tools are far from essential.

My son and his partner gifted me the new Tormek jig for plane blades (sorry, Jim, they got it from Carbatec) and for a dumb sharpener like me, I can now camber blades as much as I want. What is everyone else doing? If by hand, you must share that knowledge. Whether it is turning or other woodwork, the sharpening is a completely different set of skills.

And, as an aside, it might be useful for some to compare what was on offer 16 years ago from SCM and today in panel saws and combo machines. None of the improvements relate to user capability. The machines were just designed better.

regards Jeff

Derek; a fortnight ago I purchased the LN Honing guide with the standard + mortise chisel jaws, from Lie Nielson in the U.S, and the saving were substantial to whats being charged in OZ. I used it for the 1st time to hone the flat bevels on my Robinson Hall chisels. Excellent quality product. Free hand or honing guide. Both methods can offer a unique advantage.

Stewie;

I'll give you the straight poop on stanley planes, and that style.

Backslash is nothing to an experienced user. I eventually sold off all of my premium bench planes because in heavy use, they have a bigger friction problem. I can't recall having a negative thought about the backlash in my stanley planes. If it was a real problem, stanley would've solved it by installing tabs on the cap irons, but they didn't because experienced users don't care about it. New makers sell on that point, but look at the number of planes with a norris style adjuster vs. a stanley adjuster (before planes became planes for amateurs). It is essentially nil for the norris style.

There is a reason that an experienced user doesn't care, but I don't really need to elaborate on it. Safe to say, there is no practical gain for having zero backlash.

There is no reason to compare machines to hand tools. You'll just draw false parallels. They are different things. What you should really do if you want to achieve proficiency in a professional sense is observe professionals. Very few are operating with a shop full of boutique planes, and on the whole, a large number use much simpler sharpening systems with stones that are much older in technology. The market of tools and the instructors for those markets, not such a good place to get long term tool advice. They are conditioned to try to get beginners going.

Also, setting the cap iron on the older planes is the equalizer. If you only learn two things, one would be learning to sharpen quickly without a bunch of gadgets (if you have a tormek and guides, they are out. A guide is only to be relied on if you absolutely can't get along without it. The dry grinder is miles better than a tormek for speed -the results are the same with either one), and the second would be to learn to set the cap iron so that you don't have significant tearout.

(there is no material difference between bedrocks and bailey planes. A bailey plane will plane anything that can be hand planed, it just takes learning to set the cap iron. Moving frogs around is something that just doesn't happen in practice, and a properly set up bailey plane will stop you in your tracks before you get it to chatter. All of the information about stanley planes being inaccurate chatter prone or unstable is purely due to the skill of the writer, or lack of knowledge).

I concur with DW. I have never experienced a concern with backlash on Stanley adjusters.

Originally Posted by Jeff Leslie

.... All I know from the last couple of days is that backlash on my Stanley planes compared to my Clifton smoother is almost a deal breaker. And you are probably correct in saying that the skill level is the break-even point. All I want is to dial in a certain depth of cut and make it happen....

Jeff, my lad, I'm forming the opinion that you have a strong tendency to over-think things.

This fussing about backlash of the adjuster wheel has been around a while, & frankly, I can't see that it is of the least concern. I first saw it discussed in the 80's (and no doubt it had been aired before that) but I do recall that on reading the article in FWW that made out it was a major problem, I thought I had to 'fix' my old #5, which had 3 or 4 complete turns of backlash. Fortunately, I never got around to trying to do anything about it before common sense prevailed, & I realised it doesn't matter a hoot. You just spin the wheel til you feel it take up, then back off or advance the bit you desire. I'm so used to all my various Bailey type planes that I'm not even conscious of the backlash. Even my Clifton has at least a half turn or more.
Unless you have your lever cap set way too loose, backlash doesn't affect the ability of the mechanism to 'hold' the blade, as some people seem to think. Once you've moved the blade, it should stay where you set it, whether you've backed-off a bit or advanced a bit, though I confess I always spin back to the take-up position if I've just backed-off, out of force of habit, because we were told to do it that way at school.

And 'Bedrock' vs Bailey frogs? Tweedle Dum & Tweedle Dee. The much-trumpeted advantage of the Bedrock frog is being able to alter the frog position without removing the blade. I think I may have done that once in 40 years..........

Cheers,

Ian, just noticed the discussion, and had a question.

The little wishbone that sits in the adjusting wheel to advance and retreat the blade - If I adjusted one side forward or back slightly, that should reduce some of that slack shouldn't it? Just wasn't game to try it out before asking if someone else had first. (Hmm, might give it a go on one of the #4's I don't use often)

Originally Posted by Bendigo Bob

Ian, just noticed the discussion, and had a question.

The little wishbone that sits in the adjusting wheel to advance and retreat the blade - If I adjusted one side forward or back slightly, that should reduce some of that slack shouldn't it? Just wasn't game to try it out before asking if someone else had first. (Hmm, might give it a go on one of the #4's I don't use often)

Bob, these are usually cast - you may break it. In any event, the backlash does not start there - it begins at the slot in the chipbreaker. Close up the slot and you will reduce backlash.

As Ian and David have mentioned, the backlash does not affect performance. It is a feature of the adjuster. Planes such as the LN and LV do have less.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by Bendigo Bob

Ian, just noticed the discussion, and had a question.

The little wishbone that sits in the adjusting wheel to advance and retreat the blade - If I adjusted one side forward or back slightly, that should reduce some of that slack shouldn't it? Just wasn't game to try it out before asking if someone else had first. (Hmm, might give it a go on one of the #4's I don't use often)

If you are talking about a modern plane with a two piece steel yoke it can be done but the older cast iron ones will snap.

In any case; there are four areas that all contribute to the amount of backlash experienced in adjusting the blade depth. The fit of the yoke in the adjustment nut; the play of the yoke as it rotates around its pin, the slop in the business end of the yoke where it engages in the cap iron and finally the threads in the adjustment nut. A premium plane manufacturer can reduce these down to the absolute minimum through careful adherence to extreme manufacturing tolerances; but as has been mentioned once or twice now; does it really matter?

Yeah, hadn't thought of the slop.

And yeah, probably doesn't matter.

Major on the majors
Minor on the minors.

Question answered, I think, Bob.

What you suggested is precisely the remedy I read about 30-something years back, but as Derek said, you'd be risking a busted yoke if you tried to bend the older cast steel yokes. The 'modern' pressed-steel yokes can be bent, but honestly, it's simply not worth fussing with, because as Derek pointed out, most of the backlash comes from the sloppy fit of the finger in the slot in the cap-iron. It has to be a loose fit, otherwise it would bind because the finger pivots in a circle, while the blade moves linearly. Over time, the slot in the cap-iron wears, so older, well-used planes are likely to be sloppier. It really is a non-issue!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Jeff Leslie

Derek, thanks for your observations. I am unfortunately in the position where I need to keep things simple. Very simple. And you are probably right in saying that I am thinking like a woodturner. Sharpness is a compromise for turners, no question.

Thankfully, I think I can borrow a 5000 grit Japanese wetstone for the Tormek to trial. If it doesn't work, well I guess I will be seeking answers elsewhere.

And if I go buy my 3rd Tormek, it won't be a matter of changing wheels. Grey stone first for shaping, secondary sharpening on the black wheel then onto the 5000 grit stone. It's all theory at this stage.

Give me a few weeks with the new Veritas plane blades and I will again ask for guidance no question. (I forgot to say that I already have a 240 grit Vicmarc CBN wheel.)

Hi Jeff

It's a shame that you didn't start this thread a few weeks earlier, as I see that you are based in Kiewa. Five weeks ago I was in Falls Creek and could have dropped in and (a) ogled your lathes, and (b) discussed sharpening for flat work with you.

I agree with Derek that a Tormek and 5000 stone will not give you the "best" sharpening result you're looking for.
Derek has (either in a post here or on his website) provided details of his sharpening regime using a CBN wheel and ceramic stones. For speed, simplicity, edge development and keenness (sharpness) and absence of mess Derek's set-up is very very hard to beat. I've had a Spyderco Ultra Fine stone (white stone in a black plastic box) for getting onto 20 years. I have found it brilliant for touching up an edge while working, so I heartily endorse Derek's recommendation of ceramic stones. Because the Spyderco stones are used dry it can live on the bench right beside the work. The only caveat is that the stones are made for knife makers and some are not as flat as is desirable for chisels and plane blades. However, a diamond stone quickly fixes any issues if a new stone is not acceptably flat.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'll give you the straight poop on stanley planes, and that style.

Backlash is nothing to an experienced user. I eventually sold off all of my premium bench planes because in heavy use, they have a bigger friction problem. I can't recall having a negative thought about the backlash in my stanley planes. If it was a real problem, stanley would've solved it by installing tabs on the cap irons, but they didn't because experienced users don't care about it. New makers sell on that point, but look at the number of planes with a norris style adjuster vs. a stanley adjuster (before planes became planes for amateurs). It is essentially nil for the norris style.

There is a reason that an experienced user doesn't care, but I don't really need to elaborate on it. Safe to say, there is no practical gain for having zero backlash.

There is no reason to compare machines to hand tools. You'll just draw false parallels. They are different things. What you should really do if you want to achieve proficiency in a professional sense is observe professionals. Very few are operating with a shop full of boutique planes, and on the whole, a large number use much simpler sharpening systems with stones that are much older in technology. The market of tools and the instructors for those markets, not such a good place to get long term tool advice. They are conditioned to try to get beginners going.

Also, setting the cap iron on the older planes is the equalizer. If you only learn two things, one would be learning to sharpen quickly without a bunch of gadgets (if you have a tormek and guides, they are out. A guide is only to be relied on if you absolutely can't get along without it. The dry grinder is miles better than a tormek for speed -the results are the same with either one), and the second would be to learn to set the cap iron so that you don't have significant tearout.

(there is no material difference between bedrocks and bailey planes. A bailey plane will plane anything that can be hand planed, it just takes learning to set the cap iron. Moving frogs around is something that just doesn't happen in practice, and a properly set up bailey plane will stop you in your tracks before you get it to chatter. All of the information about stanley planes being inaccurate chatter prone or unstable is purely due to the skill of the writer, or lack of knowledge).

DW, some interesting observations about backlash and that you, as an experience woodie, don't think it an issue.

Sorry, but there are tens or hundreds of thousands of wood workers out there where backlash is an issue. Read, for example, FWW edition no 250. The author (as with Garrett Hack), thought backlash was an issue. To say that there is no material difference between a Bedrock and a Bailey plane is absolute crap. I am new to this game, but your tools/machines should behave EXACTLY as you want. 125mm square cross-cuts? One tenth of a millimeter on a shaving cut with a smoothing plane? Why not? And why not without stuffing around with crap tools?

No concern with backlash on Stanley adjusters? Why is it then that the new Stanleys cost a quarter of the price of a decent plane? Sounds to me that advocates of crap planes "make do" and have the time to adjust a Bailey style plane in minutes, when I want to spend whatever is costs and have the adjustment there in seconds.

Now if I am wrong on all this, please post some pics of say 8 redgum dining chairs to give us all a reference point. Experienced user? OK, show me.

Jeff

Originally Posted by Jeff Leslie

..... there are tens or hundreds of thousands of wood workers out there where backlash is an issue. Read, for example, FWW edition no 250. The author (as with Garrett Hack), thought backlash was an issue. To say that there is no material difference between a Bedrock and a Bailey plane is absolute crap.....

Jeff, my lad, I'll say it again, a little more forcefully, I think you are getting your knickers in a twist about a rather insubstantial issue. Garret Hack is a pretty competent bloke, for sure, but remember, he is paid to write articles about planes, and so he has to have something to say about them. There may be hundreds of thousands of folks concerned about backlash on planes (I somehow doubt it), but I still say the poor things are wasting their angst on an irrelevant issue. My challenge to you is to explain exactly why it matters. The extra time it might take to adjust a blade because there is an extra turn or two of backlash would really not amount to more than a few seconds per year. If your time is that precious, you are on a much better hourly rate than I ever commanded!

Out of curiosity, I just went & checked, and my #4 Clifton actually has almost 1 3/4 turns of backlash, while the English Stanley has 2 & not-quite-1/2 turns. The fact that I didn't know exactly, ought to tell you how little it matters. The Clifton has a 'Bedrock' frog, the Stanley a Bailey, when set up to do the same job, I would defy you or anyone else to tell the difference, without looking (which of course is rather hard not to do ).

The difference in cost of boutique planes vs vintage Stanleys has a lot to do with manufacturing costs of small-scale outfits today vs the gargantuan Stanley works of yore & the piddling wages they paid. Manufacturing tolerances of pre-WW2 Stanleys were probably close-to what LN & Veritas do now, but achieving those tolerances costs more, in today's world.

Originally Posted by Jeff Leslie

..... Now if I am wrong on all this, please post some pics of say 8 redgum dining chairs to give us all a reference point. Experienced user? OK, show me.....

Several of the people who've responded here are pretty competent woodworkers - go to "Big Stuff" & search on the usernames & you should be rewarded with some eye-catching stuff. However, that's somewhat irrelevant, as I've seen some stupendous furniture made with 'crap' tools that you probably wouldn't even bother to pick up & examine.

I think you are determined to have what you consider 'the best' and seeking justification for it. You don't need to, you know, if you want to spend your money on a shedfull of LNs, there is nothing wrong with that - there are tools in my kit simply because I like the look of them, though I know full well other, less expensive tools would serve me just as well......

Cheers,