The definition of hand made

**D.W.** · 20th July 2023, 01:20 AM

First, before I even mention anything, I'm not an ardent advocate of everything having to be hand made or there being some kind of needed quality in something hand made when performance is the same and especially when the handmade price is higher. This is more of an observation of what other folks bring up. personally, as a maker, I think if you make everything entirely by hand, what you make will look different because you have fewer limitations.

If I built furniture, I'd be engrossed in figuring out how to make various mouldings and probably with stuff like painting clock faces or whatever.

But my point is this - anyone who touches something always seems to want to consider it hand made, and they'll get offended if someone else is "more hand made" than them and it's pointed out, and offended by anyone who is doing less by hand because "it's not really made by hand".

I was watching a guy designing some kind of compressed air motor this past week and thinking, ghee, I could do the stuff he's doing, but he's got a 3d printer and a CNC and he can just print little plastic moulds and little plastic parts and make a gaggle of them while he's doing something with others. It was pretty nifty. I have no idea if it's hand made.

Too, I walked into rockler years ago before I realized there's little in there that I can use unless I confine myself to trying to out of a weird false sense of "supporting local" and paying outlandish prices.....there was a group of guys standing around a carvewright saying "I carved_____"

I thought that was an obnoxious thing to say at the time. "I programmed the machine to carve ____" seemed better, but they were happy with what they were doing and 15 years on or whatever it is now, I just don't care about stuff like that. they were having a good time with their hobby, and probably considered what they were doing "hand made".

it generally devolves into what you can or can't do. i've hand dimensioned something on the order of 1000 board feet of material, and machine dimensioned much less than that. I look forward to hand dimensioning and when in a big toolmaking run, start to resent not hand dimensioning wood. so at one point, I was debating the design of planes with charlesworth, who was viewing planes as something that works after a power saw, planer and thicknesser - and I was pointing out to him that you can make things starting from rough with hand tools, and the tools will teach you more about their design then and some of that will carry over to fine work - and his response was "that's insanity".

when I figured out how to use the cap iron based on a hunch (having no knowledge of holtzapffel or nicholson's instructions), it was not to do smoothing, it was to do the work before smoothing. It was intolerable without a cap iron. Hand made for me personally has a narrower definition, but if someone wants to use a wider one for themselves, that's up to them. I only speak up when people talk about what's possible and what's not. Guitars, for example. you can do them entirely by hand, including the routs and the inside curves and the truss rod groove. it's not hard to do that by hand. Almost nobody does it, and I've had a snide comment here or there because pickup cavities cut by hand don't look like they came out of a router jig. I think that's humorous. The go-to for most people is some kind of router jig .For me, that's less safe than hand mortising the truss rod groove, so I do it by hand. people who use a router jig, or who run a guitar body around a pin router or bearing bit think they're doing it "by hand", and that someone who uses a CNC to profile a guitar body or drill a truss rod groove isn't making things by hand.

it's like my mother's definition of rich people. My parents are comfortable - they are not the kind of folks who buy a new mercedes every year, but they could not possibly ever run out of money with their financial position. rich to my mother is someone with more.

Not hand made seems to be "the person who does less by hand than I do".

I value the aspects that are different if you do more by hand as a maker, but don't think anyone who wants anything i'm making should put any stake in it unless it leads to something different. For example - the seaton chisels - they won't be made by someone using a CNC machine and a programmable furnace. if they are, they won't be very good. They end up being different made by hand, but it's not that important that it's the hand part of the making - it's the proportion and the various qualities (visual and other) of what's made.

I suspect this will never die, and there will be a lot of woodworkers who have jigged up and done fairly little that is fully influenced by their own hands only, but who are offended by people making nifty stuff partially or mostly with 3d printers and CNC machines. Just as the guy who bandsaws and pin routs a gaggle of guitar bodies will assert that there is something better about his work "by hand with the old tools". that's the equipment guitars were designed to fit, and when you do make them entirely by hand, the strict 90 degree angles on body size seem less like a neat design feature and more a limitation of what a pin router will do in production. it's tedious to imitate that, though you can do it and not have someone see that it was done by hand (i've done it) - you just realize at the time the freedom to do things by hand and perhaps have something more interesting design wise for the same or less effort - well, that freedom wasn't there and the tooling dictated parts of the design.

One last thought - rather than calling things made by hand, i tend to fall into discussing how much of it is done with power tools and how much is done without them. it seems more accurate. I'd love to be able to hammer and file chisels to shape, but without resorting to making laminated tools (not a huge fan for chisels), it's not to be and never was the case historically, either.

**D.W.** · 20th July 2023, 11:15 AM

(instead of arguing about what's hand made or not, we should probably strive to grade whether or not we made something the way we most enjoy making it. Folks who don't like to work a lot by hand should do what they like. I've never felt an obligation to make something "by hand" like without power tools - it's a pleasure. The pleasure is the reason, not an ideal rooted in some kind of self torture of "doing it the right way" to impress other people).

**Mountain Ash** · 21st July 2023, 08:57 AM

Hi David. I think ripping timber is the perfect example. I will always use my tablesaw where I can. Cutting a 2" x 10" into 2/ 1" x 10" is something I cut as much of with power and then finish by hand. And I don't have a jointer so I dress 1 face by hand to give a reference face to run through the thicknesser.

**Bushmiller** · 21st July 2023, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by D.W.

One last thought - rather than calling things made by hand, I tend to fall into discussing how much of it is done with power tools and how much is done without them. it seems more accurate. I'd love to be able to hammer and file chisels to shape, but without resorting to making laminated tools (not a huge fan for chisels), it's not to be and never was the case historically, either.

David

As I was reading through your post I was thinking exactly the same as your last paragraph. There could be a number of definitions on what is handmade. Even with a CNC machine we have to press a button or flick a switch and most of us will use our hand to do this. Does that make it handmade? Yes, I am being facetious with this comment. So is handmade down to the level of effort involved? Ripping timber as MA has pointed out is fairly demanding and requires considerable physical effort: Much more than using a handheld circular saw, and a huge amount more than using a table saw and power feed. And yet the use of any of those methods only brings us back to the same point as somebody who bought the timber already planed or dressed to size and used hand tools from there on.

Power tools and machines are more about accomplishing multiple tasks or more volume of work. As we age, they may make possible woodworking tasks that otherwise would be impossible. Every so often I see videos come through of people in, what we rather arrogantly refer to as "third world countries," making work with no more than two or three tools. They would probably look at us with our, frankly, largely superfluous array of tools and question whether we are just using hand tools and for that matter, how were those hand tools made?

What do we call it? I don't really know, but "hand made" just doesn't cut it (ooops

). Shop made, non-commercial, one-offs: I guess there would be any number of much more appropriate headings we could give to the work we as hobbyists and rank amateurs produce.

Regards
Paul

**The Spin Doctor** · 21st July 2023, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

David

As I was reading through your post I was thinking exactly the same as your last paragraph. There could be a number of definitions on what is handmade.

There is no more a definition of handmade than there is of homemade anymore, it's all BS. Some years ago I looked into opening a shop on the east coast of the US. Went and visited a fellow's shop, who had a pretty good reputation around Vermont, making and selling "handmade" furniture for a handmade premium... What I saw was him make the stuff on machine and then go over it lightly with a No. 3 plane. As far as he was concerned that was enough to say it was handmade. And, more importantly, his customers were willing to make themselves believe it. Sounds better when they tell friends how much they paid...

How often do restaurants... advertise homemade? And more importantly how often do customers take them to task on it. Not going to stop any time soon. In fact, it'll probably get much worse what people will claim.

**Skew ChiDAMN!!** · 21st July 2023, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

What do we call it? I don't really know, but "hand made" just doesn't cut it (ooops

). Shop made, non-commercial, one-offs: I guess there would be any number of much more appropriate headings we could give to the work we as hobbyists and rank amateurs produce.

Once upon a time "Boutique" or "artisanal work" would've been suitable terms. Not necessarily meaning hand-made, but at least they meant a level of personal attention to quality.

Now, like my opening, they merely mean you're about to be told a fairy tale.

**D.W.** · 22nd July 2023, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

Once upon a time "Boutique" or "artisanal work" would've been suitable terms. Not necessarily meaning hand-made, but at least they meant a level of personal attention to quality.

Now, like my opening, they merely mean you're about to be told a fairy tale.

The new trend here is to try in other things to make something sound like more than it is. For example, there's a chain restaurant up the street that advertises "hand crafted burgers and shakes".

I have no clue what a hand crafted milkshake is, but I think that's the point. It's an attempt to add value either for advertising or increasing price.

It does seem like in the states that we're in a condition of retail corridors in surburban areas becoming so expensive that most of what pops up is just weird things - like sit-down mid priced restaurants that are just obviously chains bringing food in from some central processing area, with lots of effort spent on talking about what's being served, but obviously not using "top ingredients" as they claim.

I see less of this kind of stuff from the remaining mom and pops restaurants who probably would be embarrassed to claim things that aren't true.

For amateurs woodworking, though, I guess I'm kind of leaning on the idea that maybe the whole hand-made thing that made a comeback in the 1960s here after a 65 year embracing of all things modern has lost steam, so it doesn't really matter. It doesn't to me, at least. It does matter when I'm making something, and I guess it does matter when someone boasts about the quality of something (that's just foreign sourced and flipped) and you have a clue that it was made cheaply.

I guess it's everything in context. I'd go so far as to say it's people my age and older who are obsessed with whether or not something is hand made.

https://i.imgur.com/g4t36uU.jpg

here's an example of some of my more well finished chisels. Not the first picture I've shown. If you asked if they are hand made, I'd say I don't know. I would love to make them only with hand tools, but it's not in the cards due to heat treatment. are they "hand forged"? Well, some parts of them are forge shaped and then the rest of the work would be more accurately described as freehand ground. The handles are just turned on a lathe - everything is made from stock, there's nothing sourced and assembled.

https://i.imgur.com/rPmneB7.jpg

There is a level beyond this where folks make chisels hammer forging billets or bearings or whatever the source stock is, and even in some cases pattern welding. Are theirs hand made? maybe. the heavy forging has to be done with a power hammer. Does that make them not hand made?

it's insane. Too, we have a generation now -older than me to younger who really is used to seeing things made in CNC and would like that better than my chisels. They should like what they like, not what I like. Of course, I've gotten suggestions - as everyone does. "you should make socket chisels, they're better" or "you should send patterns out to a job shop and have them make them for you and send them off to heat treatment", and so on.

**D.W.** · 22nd July 2023, 04:35 AM

Actually, this cranky string of wishing we could argue about more substantive things reminds me of a store near here. It's out of business. It was a furniture store that was called "solid wood" or something like that, and it did well because it was about 10 miles north of me in an affluent area.

Around the store were nuggets like "all solid wood furniture" or "we sell only solid wood furniture" and I have to admit I didn't think that hard about it. Wife and I bought a side cabinet for the dining room and it was reasonably priced. Certainly some of the items, like tables, were all solid wood, but in a fit of saving a few bucks and finding something easy to finish, many were made from alder.

i don't know if they called the furniture hand made, but it obviously wasn't. Some was from a factory a few hours northwest of here and probably some was from a greater distance as alder isn't common here - not in furniture and not in lumber supply.

Their gimmick, if you want to call it that, was that you could identify the furniture you wanted and then you could get it finished after you chose. If you had anything at all - a good picture or whatever else, they did a good job matching stains reasonably close and then blasted the furniture with precat lacquer or conversion varnish or something. Very practical.

As I set into woodworking, and as I looked at the delivered side cabinet, I realized that they didn't waste any time sanding the bevels on the raised panels (no problem) and that the furniture other than for the face frame and some top very simple trim, and others around the bottom, was all hardwood plywood.

It has held up well.

but they knew the value of telling people furniture was "solid wood" because 20 - 30 years ago here, people had kind of grown up with the idea that softwood furniture was cheap furniture and plywood furniture was worse.

unfortunately, they eventually went out of business.

the cost for the three door hutch - in cherry, and neatly made, was $2400 in current dollars. An amish table and chairs that we got after that was about $4k in current dollars - too, cherry, but actually all solid wood. The slats in the chairs have no sign of obligation to discern grain direction and several of the chairs have broken over the years giving me a repair job. Which I am happy to do. I'd hate to make a large solid cherry table and six fairly attractive chairs for $4k.

the furniture that turned out not to be solid wood has fared better. so has the ikea slung low birch ply chair that we got around the same time in leather for $300, including an ottoman.

I never heard anyone have anything ill to say about the Solid Wood furniture place, and I wasn't going to talk negatively about them, either. It's certainly forgivable and I doubt most people will ever know that the case work was all plywood with some solid trim and feet, and of course frame and doors. Folks are unhappy that they went out of business, but there aren't enough folks paying $2500 per for each piece of furniture with several to each room for them to make it. just the way it goes.

the guys who did the stain matching and spray work did work that would take me four times as long to match - I admired their skill in what was probably quick work for them.

**derekcohen** · 22nd July 2023, 10:58 AM

David, we understand when someone advertises “hand made” it is all about seeking to add value … just advertising. The real issue is why this bothers us so much.

Well, we are woodworkers and fixate on minor differences … differences that would go straight over the head of a non-woodworker. Who cares if the drawers are dovetailed or not, or that the dovetails were made with a machine or hand? What matters whether the glue is yellow or hide? Or hand planed vs sanded? Ask your wife if she ever thinks about this, or whether it was a factor when choosing furniture. Do your friends give a rats?

The search for Truth and Honesty is present everywhere there is passion about a subject. Hell, you should be present when I have discussions with my professional colleagues!

Regards from Perth

Derek

**jack620** · 22nd July 2023, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by D.W.

The new trend here is to try in other things to make something sound like more than it is. For example, there's a chain restaurant up the street that advertises "hand crafted burgers and shakes".

There's nothing new about that in the US. I was a regular traveller to the US for 25 years and the words "hand crafted" appeared on menus the whole time. My favourite (and very common) menu item was "hand cut fries". As if anyone cares how the potatoes were cut.

**D.W.** · 22nd July 2023, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by jack620

There's nothing new about that in the US. I was a regular traveller to the US for 25 years and the words "hand crafted" appeared on menus the whole time. My favourite (and very common) menu item was "hand cut fries". As if anyone cares how the potatoes were cut.

I wonder what hand cut fries meant. Hand crafted is a term in this area and where I grew up that was usually used for stuff like furniture or craft circuit stuff. But I get why the chains are trying to use it - if you talked to their marketing counsel, they would say "it's a term that doesn't have legal meaning", just like "all natural". Terms like "all natural" are all over the place until they start to get stale and then we get something else.

I haven't paid enough attention about signs that say that things are hand made because it seems to be more of a debate among hobbyist makers. I would say something about the amish not using planes, which is generally true, but the only amishman I know well does actually have planes in a cabinet shop. I've not seen him use them, but they are there, and as another debate would go - he likes them to be laid on their side.

I was a "hand cutter" of fries at one point, using one of those wall mounted things - have to say working in a restaurant as a kid, I looked forward to running fries through those and lettuce through another of the same type of thing. But in my state, you had to be 18 to use either of them.

I grew up in a more rural area and remember the terms "home cooked" and "home style" for stuff that definitely wasn't either unless momma was pulling TV dinners out and heating them!

**Bucky** · 22nd July 2023, 12:23 PM

I mainly do woodworking as a therapy and make boxes, arguably by hand. While I do have a table saw, bandsaw, jointer and thicknesser to roughly dimension the timber, I do the rest with hand tools. As such I make the claim that they are handmade. I don’t sell them at an elevated price due to them being handmade. In fact I don’t sell them at all. It is both my hobby and therapy. They are handcrafted with passion.

Early in the morning just on three
I get up again for another pee
At four finally drifting of to sleep
My Apple Watch gives off a beep

I sleep with it on my left hand.
It tells me that it’s time to stand
My current meds keep me awake
For that another a pill you can take

It comes with a warning of sorts
Risk of possible suicidal thoughts
At five while laying awake in bed
Thinking I might be better off dead

With still a pulse and the coming light.
I make it again throughout the night.
And it’s now with the coming dawn
I slowly arise and snuffle a yawn.

Next off to the shed with cup of tea
With wood and tools awaiting me
Now I know that it’s not that grand
But t’was made by me and by hand

Its here in my shed I’m at my best
With busy hands and mind at rest
Alone at my bench with cup of tea
And where woodwork is my therapy

**Fergiz01** · 22nd July 2023, 01:10 PM

Whenever I see the term 'hand made' or 'artisinal'or whatever used in conjunction with furniture it's usually an amateur trying to flog a resin coffee table with gappy joints. Give me a piece made by a pro using machines any day over that stuff. I count myself lucky that I just make pieces for myself and loved ones, and don't need to advertise or use any words to spruik my work.

**The Spin Doctor** · 22nd July 2023, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by derekcohen

David, we understand when someone advertises “hand made” it is all about seeking to add value … just advertising. The real issue is why this bothers us so much.
Derek

Bothers me because it's complete BS. I don't care whether it's woodwork or knitting. I simply want the truth. The sad part is I have to default to a position of believing everyone is full of bull if they're selling something. As I get older, I'm also more willing to tell them their full of it.

**D.W.** · 22nd July 2023, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by derekcohen

David, we understand when someone advertises “hand made” it is all about seeking to add value … just advertising. The real issue is why this bothers us so much.

Well, we are woodworkers and fixate on minor differences … differences that would go straight over the head of a non-woodworker. Who cares if the drawers are dovetailed or not, or that the dovetails were made with a machine or hand? What matters whether the glue is yellow or hide? Or hand planed vs sanded? Ask your wife if she ever thinks about this, or whether it was a factor when choosing furniture. Do your friends give a rats?

The search for Truth and Honesty is present everywhere there is passion about a subject. Hell, you should be present when I have discussions with my professional colleagues!

Regards from Perth

Derek

well, I guess there's two things, but you hit on it. It's annoying when it's just fake advertising because it throws off our "that's fake bull..." meter.

For the rest of us, the obsession with what's "hand made" and what's not is a little strange. Leaning on your point, who is the party who is whispering in their ear "that's not really hand made. I know it"?

We have other things, too - but I guess the subjectivity of it makes it an easy target. I'm sure parts of your profession can get pretty lively, too, because not everything is easily just devolved down to data in psychology and even when you have data, sometimes how it's viewed is idealized, or within an ideal of how things should be vs. statistically how they are.

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