Thread: Dem bones. And a hand plane .

Hi Rob, the image of the plane does not appear to have attached

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Hi Rob, the image of the plane does not appear to have attached

I went and re did it . Good now I think.

Ive no idea why that happens sometimes?

Rob,
Nothing too add except, you may like too have a read of this,(Happy to lend you my copy)






Bill was an old fashioned English Turner of Bone, I haven’t read the Book cover too cover, but apparently there is a lot more too using Bone then just being friendly with the local Butcher an having a saw.

An Ps I will be watching this thread closely,an who’s this Ian bloke?!.

Cheers Matt.

Rob, although I have a pretty solid idea of the external appearance of the bovid skeleton, I have to confess I've never done any investigation of the bits that might yield sections large enough for your plane. The larger the animal, the larger the bones, but age doesn't help a lot, the marrow cavities become a bit more ossified, but it's still porous (cancellous is the technical term) & not solid enough for a wedge.

I suspect you've hit on the best bit yourself - that is indeed a 'cannon' bone labelled "E", & I was turning over in my mind which would be the densest bone, & the canon certainly sprang to mind. You might get a suitable piece out of a radius (forearm) or tibia (shin) bone, not sure, but the femur & humerus tend to have large marrow cavities. You'll just have to cut some up & see what you get. Most of the 'long' bones have a large marrow cavity - they are plenty strong enough with the outer part (cortex) so evolution decided to use the centre for blood cell production instead.

To get really big chunks of solid bone, you need to find yourself a largish diving mammal - their ribs are virtually solid bone.

Funny you should put this up atm - I've just finished a similar-sized mitre plane myself which was partly inspired by the one that you are copying.

1 Midi size.jpg

However, I used a lever-cap, obviously, rather than a wedge (I'm still too cowardly to try to cut out the sides for a bridge before bending!). I reckoned the 1/16" (1.6mm) sides are a bit on the thin side (but obviously work & have stood the test of time), so I went with 2.5mm (though I think 2mm will be fine), and the sole is some 4mm stainless steel I bought off the web. That was a bad move, I discovered, it turned out to be an absolute beast to peen, and despite all my experience & best efforts, I've got the worst pin-holes in my dovetails that I've had since my first plane or two!

But it's a really sweet little user. 3 Shavings.jpg

I got the mouth as fine as I reckon I will ever achieve (I think I've figured out how to do it after making more than a dozen split-soled planes!).

2 Mouth.jpg

There was still a bit of lapping to go when I took this pic but the sole is actually flat, the dark patch is due to rolling-mill marks still visible around the join in the sole. Peening always depresses the join a little, no matter how careful I am. It's usually only a fraction of a thou, but it takes some lapping out 'cos you have to remove metal from the whole rest of the sole to get down to it.

So more power to you Rob, I reckon a bone-wedged little mitre will be a very spiffy thing, and useful too. I've found this one to be a very handy size & much more manageable than the mini I made previously: mini in hand 2.jpg

This little thing is bordering on the ridiculous (but still very handy for tiny stuff):

I'll be very interested to follow the build, particularly how you decide to bend the sides. There must be a better way than the crude method I've been using. The sides have come out dead-level on two of them, but slightly off on the other couple, which would have caused me much grief if I'd pre-cut holes for a bridge. Trying to dress the "short" side over a dolly to make the curve symmetrical is very tricky, I discovered. Bill talks about it in his video series, but doesn't actually show how he does it (unless I missed that part).

Ok, I've prattled on enough...
Cheers,

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Rob,
Nothing too add except, you may like too have a read of this,(Happy to lend you my copy)

Thanks Matt.
Nice interesting cover picture to look into. That sounds good. Ill take you up on the offer and have a look if you could post it to me.
Then I'll buy a copy if I really like it. Ill PM you. Rob

Great Little plane you did there Ian.
It looks 118 mm long . What is the height and width ? It'd be interesting to compare the look of it to the Davies plane .

I guess I'm going to just bend the brass around a hardwood timber form as Ive seen done. Probably start with it clamped hard to the form first. I wonder if it would be wise to drill the strike button hole first , or a smaller one and screw or pin it to the form first? And then If the bridge holes don't line up perfect some hammering will be needed. Did you bend it that way but without the hole? I think I saw A YouTube video of Bill bending huge sides discussing his method.


Rob

A couple of days ago I rang a local farmer and asked him about the possibility of getting leg bones from a Bull. Pretty much every farm has a bone pit area where they dispose of dead cows.
A few weeks ago I asked another farmer the same question. He said he knew of a lady farmer who just had a bull die.

So the first guy had a 4 year old big bull that had been left in his bone pit 3 years ago and he could only find the one leg bone . This radius and ulna
. My best ID yet I think because I photographed it from a few sides and found some good pics on the net to compare. Its up next a 2 to 3 year old Cow (female) radius and ulna in the picture. It was larger to look at and felt a lot heavier.

IMG_5439.jpg IMG_5438.jpg IMG_5440.jpg

So it was no surprise to find it a lot thicker when cut through the middle.
That's it below on the right compared to the younger cow bone on the left. The thickest part is 32mm x 22 on the top section and that will get me over the line for the plane parts.
a.jpg

Cut through the middle and flipped open in the center picture.
IMG_5461.jpg IMG_5462.jpg IMG_5463.jpg

When I first got it I cut it up did it smell! I boiled the parts for an hour with detergent and White King bleach twice then scrubbed the parts before rinsing and drying them before cutting them up further on the band saw. lovely solid hard sections . Being the front leg parts of a bull the rear legs would have even been more impressive for parts.

Then yesterday I was given the phone number to the Lady farmer with the dead bull. We talked and she had a 4 year old bull that had died 3 weeks ago. I thought I may as well get more while I can. If I can! And before the parts get scattered. I went there this morning with a shovel ground sharp on two edges and took the largest set of blacksmith tongs I have. Some Vicks vapor rub and a covid face mask for the smell.
The farmer said the bull had been beaten up by other bulls and she found him injured in the dam! She pulled him out with the tractor and he went down hill from there so he had to be put down and she shot him. She was spewing about it as well because he produced great calves. She stood there pointing out the details of what she was breeding into her two herds and what to check for when calves are born and more. Its quite amazing to hear the knowledge of some farmers talking about what they know.

Was it hard work or WHAT! Trying to cut him up with a very sharp shovel. I should have had a sharp axe and tomahawk. I should have taken gloves. Not for the messy bits as I didn't go near enough to touch it but an hour and a half on the end of a very rough old shovel handle gave me some large blisters. The dry hard skin was so hard to cut through. The mask and vicks worked well and I was in shade under some trees which was good. The slight breeze was in my favor as well. A rope around the hoof and over the fork in the tree above really helped out getting at the back leg near the end. I got a full back leg from the hip . Part of the other back leg from the tibia fibula down. And part of one front leg. I got used pretty quickly to the slight wiff I got at times and the sight. I'm going to go back in three weeks to see if the other leg parts are looking easier to get at. And I'm going to boil all this up in a 200 liter drum when I get a chance. An easier way would be to place a cage over such a thing and come back in two years I think.

IMG_5471.jpg IMG_5480.jpg

The back leg with the rope around it still in the second pic is huge and all the other leg parts look big.
Its not very often you get such a stink come from the back of a ute.
Id love to have been able to pull up next to my brother and say casually " Hi what's going on?"

I went home quick and placed it out of the way in a drum for the next step.

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

A couple of days ago I rang a local farmer and asked him about the possibility of getting leg bones from a Bull. Pretty much every farm has a bone pit area where they dispose of dead cows.
A few weeks ago I asked another farmer the same question. He said he knew of a lady farmer who just had a bull die.

So the first guy had a 4 year old big bull that had been left in his bone pit 3 years ago and he could only find the one leg bone . This radius and ulna
. My best ID yet I think because I photographed it from a few sides and found some good pics on the net to compare. Its up next a 2 to 3 year old Cow (female) radius and ulna in the picture. It was larger to look at and felt a lot heavier.

IMG_5439.jpg IMG_5438.jpg IMG_5440.jpg

So it was no surprise to find it a lot thicker when cut through the middle.
That's it below on the right compared to the younger cow bone on the left. The thickest part is 32mm x 22 on the top section and that will get me over the line for the plane parts.
a.jpg

Cut through the middle and flipped open in the center picture.
IMG_5461.jpg IMG_5462.jpg IMG_5463.jpg

When I first got it I cut it up did it smell! I boiled the parts for an hour with detergent and White King bleach twice then scrubbed the parts before rinsing and drying them before cutting them up further on the band saw. lovely solid hard sections . Being the front leg parts of a bull the rear legs would have even been more impressive for parts.

Then yesterday I was given the phone number to the Lady farmer with the dead bull. We talked and she had a 4 year old bull that had died 3 weeks ago. I thought I may as well get more while I can. If I can! And before the parts get scattered. I went there this morning with a shovel ground sharp on two edges and took the largest set of blacksmith tongs I have. Some Vicks vapor rub and a covid face mask for the smell.
The farmer said the bull had been beaten up by other bulls and she found him injured in the dam! She pulled him out with the tractor and he went down hill from there so he had to be put down and she shot him. She was spewing about it as well because he produced great calves. She stood there pointing out the details of what she was breeding into her two herds and what to check for when calves are born and more. Its quite amazing to hear the knowledge of some farmers talking about what they know.

Was it hard work or WHAT! Trying to cut him up with a very sharp shovel. I should have had a sharp axe and tomahawk. I should have taken gloves. Not for the messy bits as I didn't go near enough to touch it but an hour and a half on the end of a very rough old shovel handle gave me some large blisters. The dry hard skin was so hard to cut through. The mask and vicks worked well and I was in shade under some trees which was good. The slight breeze was in my favor as well. A rope around the hoof and over the fork in the tree above really helped out getting at the back leg near the end. I got a full back leg from the hip . Part of the other back leg from the tibia fibula down. And part of one front leg. I got used pretty quickly to the slight wiff I got at times and the sight. I'm going to go back in three weeks to see if the other leg parts are looking easier to get at. And I'm going to boil all this up in a 200 liter drum when I get a chance. An easier way would be to place a cage over such a thing and come back in two years I think.

IMG_5471.jpg IMG_5480.jpg

The back leg with the rope around it still in the second pic is huge and all the other leg parts look big.
Its not very often you get such a stink come from the back of a ute.
Id love to have been able to pull up next to my brother and say casually " Hi what's going on?"

I went home quick and placed it out of the way in a drum for the next step.

Rob

Rob,

I just read all this in bed having my Sunday morning coffee, do you mind.[emoji849][emoji849]
Plus you had too show pictures,

I suggest you get a copy of the Chainsaw massacre movie an possibly watch it as a How too guide.

Cheers Matt.

auscab,

I came across this for cleaning bones: How to clean animal bones for display - Woodlark Blog

It may be of help?

Cheers,
Yvan

As someone who has had to do autopsies on less-than-fresh carcases, I admire your courage & dedication to the cause Rob - not many lay persons would have the stamina! A tip when 'boiling your bones', saw them in half, or wherever you think will give you the most useful lengths, and dig out some of that marrow if your stomach is up to it. A bit of detergent will help clear out fat (the marrow cavities of older animals is full of fat) and putting an onion in the water makes the smell a lot more bearable (a tip from our old anatomy technicians)....

The method you described for bending sides is fine if done very carefully.

4b bending sides.jpg

Once the sides are set up in the vise for bending, I take a couple of bits of hardwood about 15mm or so thick with bevelled ends and slide them between the jaw vise & the sides, with the bevel against the side material so it starts the bends as close to the form as possible & applies pressure evenly over the full depth. If you just pull the sides around with your hands, the bend won't form as tightly around the curve.

Once I have enough of a bend, I apply a couple of cauls against the sides & clamp these hard starting from the bend end (I do this while it is still in the vise so the sides are held firmly against the form, this pic is just for demonstration):

6 bending 3.jpg

This keeps the sides straight so they don't end up with a bow, which is a real pita to correct. You'll get a variable amount of spring-back, depending on the brass alloy you're using, but as long as you can pull the ends together comfortably to fit the front piece, that's not a problem.

Take extra care setting it up so that the form is perfectly perpendicular to the top of the side piece, if it's not, the sides won't be co-planar, obviously. A very slight twist that can easily be pressed flat with your hand will be pulled straight by the sole (as I discovered very thankfully with my first attempt).

9 slight twist.jpg

I think the thinner the side material, the easier it is to get a nice bend. What I have found, especially with thicker material, is that you don't get a perfect semi-circle, the radius of the curve tightens at the sides & is straighter across the back section (a feature I've seen described on some old mitre planes & now I know why!). I rather prefer the look to a perfect semi-circle, myself, but another 'discovery is that the curve is never perfectly symmetrical, they have always been very slightly different each side. The differences are tiny & my eye can't pick it up, but when fitting the stuffing, it will only ever go in one way!

Just a bit of my own learning curve. I think you'll find bending the 2mm material very easy.
Cheers,

Me again - had to duck out to the shed to get the info Rob asked for. So these are the vital statistics of my two baby mitres:

Small mitres.jpg

Larger one: 115mm x 4mm sole, 22mm side height, internal width 26mm with a blade 24 x 115 x 3mm (1084 steel hardened & tempered after the nib was riveted on).

Mini: 85mm x 3.2mm sole, 15mm sides, internal width 21mm and blade 21 x 80 x 2mm (cut from an old Stanley bench plane blade).

My design approach was a little different from yours - I was not trying to copy an existing plane (which would make life easier if you had the dimensions of it!). I was more or less constrained by the longest bits of suitable brass I could get my hands on. So it was a question of deciding on a blade pitch that would work within the length of "box" those lengths would make in a width that was proportional to the plane size. It took me a bit of juggling with drawings, getting everything to fit & maintaining proportions which I did by altering the position of the mouth (to keep the blade exiting at the back at the right height) and the width, which lengthened or shortened the sides a fraction. I didn't have a lot of room to manouvre because I needed to maintain the long toe that I reckon is essential to the functional anatomy of these planes, and I didn't want the sides to be too low, both for looks & for making them easier to grasp.

If using a wedge & bridge you will need more height for the bridge and wedge to fit comfortably. That was another reason to use a LC in my case, I could keep the sides a bit lower so the blade exited without needing to chop the back bend down more than a smidgin. But I do like the looks of a nice wedge, be it ebony or bone (or maybe even non-traditional ringed gidgee), so it's probably inevitable that some day, I'll have a crack at a wedged mitre plane, but I think I'll be using a wooden wedge - don't have easy access to bone nowadays.....

But not for a while, 'cos I'm not making any more planes, y'hear!?

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Me again - had to duck out to the shed to get the info Rob asked for. So these are the vital statistics of my two baby mitres:

Small mitres.jpg

Larger one: 115mm x 4mm sole, 22mm side height, internal width 26mm with a blade 24 x 115 x 3mm (1084 steel hardened & tempered after the nib was riveted on).

Mini: 85mm x 3.2mm sole, 15mm sides, internal width 21mm and blade 21 x 80 x 2mm (cut from an old Stanley bench plane blade).

My design approach was a little different from yours - I was not trying to copy an existing plane (which would make life easier if you had the dimensions of it!). I was more or less constrained by the longest bits of suitable brass I could get my hands on. So it was a question of deciding on a blade pitch that would work within the length of "box" those lengths would make in a width that was proportional to the plane size. It took me a bit of juggling with drawings, getting everything to fit & maintaining proportions which I did by altering the position of the mouth (to keep the blade exiting at the back at the right height) and the width, which lengthened or shortened the sides a fraction. I didn't have a lot of room to manouvre because I needed to maintain the long toe that I reckon is essential to the functional anatomy of these planes, and I didn't want the sides to be too low, both for looks & for making them easier to grasp.

If using a wedge & bridge you will need more height for the bridge and wedge to fit comfortably. That was another reason to use a LC in my case, I could keep the sides a bit lower so the blade exited without needing to chop the back bend down more than a smidgin. But I do like the looks of a nice wedge, be it ebony or bone (or maybe even non-traditional ringed gidgee), so it's probably inevitable that some day, I'll have a crack at a wedged mitre plane, but I think I'll be using a wooden wedge - don't have easy access to bone nowadays.....

But not for a while, 'cos I'm not making any more planes, y'hear!?

Cheers,

I’ve got $50 Au saying we see a “ New” plane by Ian by the end of the year[emoji6].

Cheers Matt.

Rob
I think the original wedge was Elephant ivory as the dimensions are too great for Cow bone.And it has a higher gloss.
perhaps cow horn might be usable; Wadkin used it for handles.
The white chess piece wood ,Oleander? might be OK

Cheers
Tony

Originally Posted by IanW

As someone who has had to do autopsies on less-than-fresh carcases, I admire your courage & dedication to the cause Rob - not many lay persons would have the stamina! A tip when 'boiling your bones', saw them in half, or wherever you think will give you the most useful lengths, and dig out some of that marrow if your stomach is up to it. A bit of detergent will help clear out fat (the marrow cavities of older animals is full of fat) and putting an onion in the water makes the smell a lot more bearable (a tip from our old anatomy technicians)....

LOL . I knew I was in for a weird days work and was dreading it. The Farmer lady though, it seemed like nothing too strange to her. She just asked if I wanted an axe . I should have said yes but I thought my shovel would do. And it was a bit of an involved trip back to her house so I stuck it out . An onion could be good. I don't intend on smelling anything or being indoors though. Ill probably just try and do one or two bones at first I think and see how it turns out. Just to see how thick they are.

When bones are cooked in a meal were told not to give them to the dogs because they are more brittle . That's probably a good thing for hand tool use of bones? Harder makes it more brittle . Harder with less oil in them is a better material to work maybe ? Or the finished appearance may be better? The marking knife handle I did was not boiled. And seems hard and came up shiny. Maybe it doesn't matter to much for appearance but I did read it does make a difference for the gluing of bone . It wont stick well if its oily .