Thread: Docking Saws

Paul

I've been thinking about why a lot of these docking saws are breasted.

I reckon it all has to do with speed and aggressive cutting.

The saws were marketed to use in places where the timbers being cut
were all fairly large, weather they were round or milled and to hep get
through them quickly the docking saw had large aggressive rake angled teeth
at low ppi and the tooth line was heavily breasted.

If the tooth line is straight there are more teeth in contact with the wood at the same time
which requires more effort resulting in less speed compared to a curved (breasted) tooth line
where there are less teeth in contact which requires less effort and a faster cut.

Also breasting would aid the ergonomics of wood cutting, a straight tooth line would
produce more of a straight back and forth motion whereas a breasted tooth line would
produce a rocking back and forth motion.

Think of looking at a log end on, the breasted saw starts it cut at about the 11 o'clock
position by the time the forward rocking stroke is finished the saw is at about the
3-4 o'clock position, this type of rotational cutting causes less teeth to be in contact
on the same plane and makes less effort and a faster cut.

Well that's my theory anyway.

It is at this time you can say this guy is full of sh..

Graham

Graham

We will have to sharpen some up and put them to the test. The only one I have that is sharp is the saw I re-handled. It certainly cuts quickly: Is it because it has sharp teeth? Is it to do with the tooth geometry (sloped gullets) or is it because it is breasted? So many questions: So few answers.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by macg

........I've been thinking about why a lot of these docking saws are breasted.....

I reckon it all has to do with speed and aggressive cutting.

.......If the tooth line is straight there are more teeth in contact with the wood at the same time
which requires more effort resulting in less speed compared to a curved (breasted) tooth line
where there are less teeth in contact which requires less effort and a faster cut.......

Nope, can't agree with your reasoning, Graham. As long as the gullets aren't choking, more teeth cutting = quicker cutting.

The reason for the curved tooth line is to take account of human anatomy. As your arms go back & forth over a large stroke, they follow an arc. The rationale for the curve, or breasting is that it actually allows all teeth to remain in contact with the wood whilst the saw is 'rocked' back & forth in the cut. When you start the cut on the top of a log, you do have only a couple of teeth contacting the wood, and if you've ever used a large crosscut, you'll know it can be a bit tricky. You have to hold the saw so that there is very little pressure on the teeth until it has gone in a ways & has more of them contacting wood. Once it's cutting freely, off you go. If you watch a couple of sawyers from the side, you'll see how the saw goes back & forth in an arc, with all teeth in the kerf cutting...

Chers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Nope, can't agree with your reasoning, Graham. As long as the gullets aren't choking, more teeth cutting = quicker cutting.

The reason for the curved tooth line is to take account of human anatomy. As your arms go back & forth over a large stroke, they follow an arc. The rationale for the curve, or breasting is that it actually allows all teeth to remain in contact with the wood whilst the saw is 'rocked' back & forth in the cut. When you start the cut on the top of a log, you do have only a couple of teeth contacting the wood, and if you've ever used a large crosscut, you'll know it can be a bit tricky. You have to hold the saw so that there is very little pressure on the teeth until it has gone in a ways & has more of them contacting wood. Once it's cutting freely, off you go. If you watch a couple of sawyers from the side, you'll see how the saw goes back & forth in an arc, with all teeth in the kerf cutting...

Chers,

Ian,
Thank you for articulating what I was going, trying to write.
One point I was thinking of the piston rod on a steam engine.
Swings in the same manner!.
But you always say it so much simpler and nicer than me.[emoji6]

Cheers Matt.

Paul

the tooth geometry on your rehandled saw looks so wicked that it would
scare its way through the wood.

Ian

thank you for a more precise description for the breasting on these docking saws.

I told you I was full of sh..

now I will have to go and try this out for real instead of trying to make a point by
sitting at the computer.

Matt

your steam piston action had also been pictured as well.

I wonder if there was ever a description by the inventor
of the breasted tooth line, hmmmm

Graham.

Originally Posted by macg

......I wonder if there was ever a description by the inventor
of the breasted tooth line, hmmmm.......

Graham, I'm no oracle either, but I think curved tooth lines would go back almost as far as saws, so it would be unlikely its 'invention' could be ascribed to anyone in particular. A quick search of 'breasting' & 'patent' didn't find anything useful, but maybe it was called something else a couple hundred years ago?? I suspect it's one of those things that occurred to some observant soul whilst watching a couple of sawyers whip a crosscut saw through a good-sized log - a very, very, long time ago. However, I could very easily be out to lunch on that......

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

A quick search of 'breasting' & 'patent' didn't find anything useful, but maybe it was called something else a couple hundred years ago??
Cheers,

Ian

I would be interested to know exactly what it did bring up; just so we can keep abreast of things. Actually all triviality aside, the shape has most likely been around for a long time, but when was the term "breasted" first used and why did that come about (tricky water here I think?)

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Ian

I would be interested to know exactly what it did bring up; just so we can keep abreast of things. Actually all triviality aside, the shape has most likely been around for a long time, but when was the term "breasted" first used and why did that come about (tricky water here I think?)

Regards
Paul

It’s interesting to note the OP,attempting to steer the thread into unknown waters regarding the above comments.
I do hope for the sake of the simplicity folk here he keeps a breast of his antics.[emoji849]

Cheers Matt,

All

I have found a reference to 'breasting' in the 1912 publication "SAW FILING and Management Of Saws" by Robert Grimshaw.

" The cutting edge is very often made on a convex curve or with a "crown" or "breast," to adapt it to the natural rocking motion
of the hand and arm."

There is probably more out there somewhere, will keep looking.

Graham

Graham, yes, you can find the term 'breasting', going back over a hundred years quite easily, what I was looking for was some historical treatise that might shed light on when the practice began. If it was called something different back then, it complicates searching for useful references! I think we can safely assume that the practice of making convex tooth-lines started long before the 18th century began. I have a recollection of seeing illustrations of old breasted saws (like at least medieval), but can't find anything in the books I have on hand. I'll keep looking, out of idle interest.

And Paul - how the term got applied to the shape of a saw with a convex toothline seems pretty obvious to me - it is surely the profile of a breast, (think of the breast-plates used for armour). The shape of the human female breast (at least of mature specimens) is essentially the same, but somewhat obscured by a pair of mammary glands, which have come to be (wrongly) given the name of the part of the anatomy to which they are actually attached.......

Cheers,

The Art of saw filing Origin and utility of the saw.

Page 28 has a reference to Long Cross Cut or Log Saw.


Cheers Matt,
Apologies for short reply very very full week and have been up since 5.45 this morning.

Originally Posted by IanW

And Paul - how the term got applied to the shape of a saw with a convex toothline seems pretty obvious to me - it is surely the profile of a breast, (think of the breast-plates used for armour). The shape of the human female breast (at least of mature specimens) is essentially the same, but somewhat obscured by a pair of mammary glands, which have come to be (wrongly) given the name of the part of the anatomy to which they are actually attached.......

Cheers,

Thanks Ian.

Your background has served you well. I will have a completely different view point on breasted things in the future. Just returning to saws for the moment, I think it is true to say all logging saws are heavily breasted (sometimes called "bellied") and it is common with the larger saws intended for rough cutting. The docking saws are at the lower end (size wise) of this genre.

Regards
Paul

Paul

The intrigue of this docking saw thread has caused me to clean up the saws that I have here
and has helped to identify some of mystery saws.

In your 1st post you thought you had an early saw with the non perforated handle, well
I reckon it is an 'in between' saw.

The catalogues show the early saws with blades with a square top back corner and
an off set non perforated handle and the later saws with an angled top back corner
and an let in perforated handle.

Your saw has the angled top back corner but retains the non perforated handle.

One of my mystery saws turned out to have a very faint Symonds etch on a blade
with the square top back corner and the off set non perforated handle.

Please have a look at the attached photos to see if I'm correct or have I just
made things more confusing???

Graham

Interesting Graham

Who would have thought that there could be so much variation on a one line saw.

As I see it so far:

The earliest versions shown in the hand saw era catalogues (1910 to 1923)

A straight cut heel; Solid handle; two slightly rounded but essentially square lugs for the rivets and a handle that "hangs" off the back of the saw

Macq s docking simonds.jpg Simonds No.348 Docking 1923.png

I have used your saw to show the resemblance to the catalogue pic from 1923, which is the last example I have with the solid handle. However, your saw does have a gentle curve to the heel, whereas the catalogue pix are all absolutely straight.

Then, if our supposition is correct, my solid handle saw is next with the let in (or close coupled ) handle:

P1030877 (Medium).JPG

followed by the same style with the perforated handle (the catalogue pic is 1938):


P1030893 (Medium).JPGSimonds No.348 Docking 1938.jpg

But, what if that rubbish saw I mentioned before is a Simonds? It looks as though it is, but I am completely unable to verify this because of the absence of markings:

P1030932 (Medium).JPG

Perforated handle and it hangs off the saw plate! Where would that fit in? Maybe it is not a Simonds (although no other manufacturer, as far as I can tell, used those square lugs) so the comment could be irrelevant. Perhaps I should have ditched the saw after all and not kept it to cause confusion.



Regards
Paul