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Thread: Saw 'doctoring"

  1. #1
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    Default Saw 'doctoring"

    All these posts on restoring old handsaws have got me intrigued to the point where I risked 50c at a garage sale this morning. Here's what I got for my money.




    typically rusty I suppose, looks like the handle has perhaps been modified along the bottom and the tip of the tongue is broken off.



    The handle 'bolts' are in need of some restoration effort too. A quick clean of the stamp tell me its 'The John Simpson Saw', Newbould & Co Limite., Sheffield.




    There's a lot of daylight under the blade!


    So, I'll start by taking off the handle and cleaning up the metalwork. What should I do about the handle? Do you get more points for restoration or remaking?

    Your comments and suggestions on the project are most welcome.

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  3. #2
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    That saw will clean up to be a good user. You can joint out the concave bit of the blade without much trouble.A good file does not take much time to cut saw plate. As for the handle it is up to you. I would keep the original as it will be serviceable and will clean up fine. I think the bottom of the handle was planed off for cutting rebates or dadoes in wide boards so would be a handy feature to keep.
    Regards
    John

  4. #3
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    That is a 'London patten' saw handle ... probably 1900-ish ... not-quite top shelf in quality, but about anything with split nuts is a good start.

    But taking off those split nuts can be fraught with peril ... they are very thin

    Find a pic later.

    Cheers,
    Paul

  5. #4
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    The flat bottom of the handle under the grip would have been part of the original design. IMO. Looking at the difference in saw plate depth at each end its possible that the hardback just needs to be tapped down at the mortise end to make it look more flush to the handle, but its hard to gauge without seeing a close up at the front of the mortise. If I am right, there should be a noticeable gap under the bottom edge of the hardback where it fits within the handle. Nice pick up though. Should come up a treat if refurbished correctly.

    Stewie;

  6. #5
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    Handle looks pretty good, a bit of repair to the top horn and a clean-up. The saw screws have been removed at some point and put in back to front, and when re-assembled, of course one of the nuts is missing, is the handle loose? Judging by how the back is sitting on the plate I am guessing the tooth line is not straight. There are plenty of threads on here, http://www.wkfinetools.com/index.asp, and WoodNet on fixing this.

    When you joint the teeth to remove the concavity, I suggest you take steel off the toe and leave the heel alone as much as possible, there is not much depth of plate at the heel as it is. This will result in a slightly canted saw plate, which is actually a good thing. Looking at the plate I an guessing you will need to joint and shape 3 times to get rid of the concavity - unless you want to remove all the teeth and re-tooth, I would not do this as a beginner's exercise.

    A bit of a trip for you, but there is a saw sharpening workshop on in Sydney next Sunday, see https://www.woodworkforums.com/f278/tttg-workshop-sharpening-sunday-23-march-182950 for details.

    Cheers
    Peter

  7. #6
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    Nice pickup

    the handle looks comfortable to hold, is it?

    You might have gone overboard with the price though! Not sure I'd gone over 49c

    but be very careful, this is the first step on a somewhat slippery slide

    welcome to the club
    regards
    Nick
    veni, vidi,
    tornavi
    Without wood it's just ...

  8. #7
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    Three types of bolts ... you can see the fragility issue ...
    Cheers,
    Paul


    split nut screw_combo1-125x300.jpg

  9. #8
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    Thumbs up

    Thank you for your astute observations so far. I have pulled it down and taken some pics.



    The bolts are of the first type thanks Paul, and as you can see, pretty knocked around and deformed. I don't think I can use the original nuts again. I had in mind to rethread the bolts and make up some T nuts to suit. I'd have to remove some material in the handle to get them to fit. Is that a suitable solution?
    And is there a convention as to which side they are fitted from Peter? I must have a good look at that link when time allows.
    Stewie is on the money about the gap. I'll tap it down when I've cleaned it up. Should I squeeze it a bit (vice jaws?) to secure it?
    In sharpening, I think I may take a little from the heel and a lot from the toe rather than all from the toe, that would mean a lot of material removed in the one area.
    That workshop sounds good. I'll see what SWMBO has lined up for me.



    I'm coming around to the view that the handle shape is original. There appears to be some finish on the underside that is consistant with the rest of it. A dab of superglue to start with and I think I'll stick with what its got.

    Worth every cent SM!

  10. #9
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    Worth every cent SM!
    Oh sure .. All 50 of them .. You so and so.

  11. #10
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    Those "London pattern" handles always look a bit od at first sight, because we are more used to the common 'notched' style of handle, but I'm quite certain yours left the factory like that, Burraboy. Even if you planed the bottom off the more common style of handle, you'd most probably end up with a residual notch, and remove part of the start of the tongue. It wouldn't meet the grip fully as it does on your handle .

    If it were mine, I would certainly keep the original handle. It's in quite good condition, considering its age, and even though I think I prefer the look of the 'notched' style of handle, it's ok to be different. I'd try to preserve the original bolts, but new split nuts are probably needed. The bolts were indeed flimsy-looking things, but the fact that they've lasted 100 plus years shows they were adequate for the job, I reckon. You seem like a handy chap, used to a bit of improvisation, & new nuts are easy enough to make from a bit of brass bar of the right diameter (dead easy, if you have access to a lathe). Goodness knows what that coarse-looking thread is on the end, but you may be able to run a nice thread on them with a standard metric or imperial tap. Three nice new nuts, a bit of sanding & polishing, & that handle could be good for another 100 years...

    Cheers,
    IW

  12. #11
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    Here's what I did today.



    Paint stripper and shellac on the handle bought it up nicely! I don't think I will go further with it, the scars can tell their own tale.

    I was surprised to find an etching on the blade. It's pretty hard to see, but it looks like a signature. I have tried to reconcile it with the name 'John Simpson' that is stamped into the back but can't really.
    Here's another pic.



    I gave it a sharpen too. Got rid of the concavity in two goes.
    Tomorrow I will try to find time to try to make up some new nuts and get it back together.

  13. #12
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    great work

    that tote came up great and the blade doesn't look too bad.
    Now I'm wondering whether I should shellac my tote, decisions decisions

    good luck with the nuts - I agree with Ian try and keep the nuts and bolts original or close to if you can. Looks better IMHO
    regards
    Nick
    veni, vidi,
    tornavi
    Without wood it's just ...

  14. #13
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    Hand that man a toffee-apple!

    Looks great.

    The london-pattern handle was on the *very* early saws ... eg in the Seaton Toolchest 1796 ...
    http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/b...on-t60938.html



    and then around ooooh (RayG help!) say 1880-1920, they tended to be on the 2nd or 3rd or 4th ... quality saws in the marketing whirlpool of the UK at that time. But don't get the wrong idea ... 4th best quality from 1890 is possibly a match in performance for the LN, LV and Wenzloff saws ... and maybe just as pretty.

    Also the "John Simpson" on the back is a classic "other brand" for one of the sawmakers of sheffield.
    Taylor Bros had a dozen or more of them.

    Can we get a closeup of the stamped section, please?

    Re the etch ... going out at sunset and looking almost flat-on to the blade with the light at various angles can help sometimes ... or in a dark room with a torch/led and moving the viewing angles around and about. Or any of the above with WD40 pooled on the blade over the etch.

    There might be a "Sheffield" on there at least?

    Cheers,
    Paul

    Video of the Seaton Toolchest on display ...


  15. #14
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    Actually it was Turner ... not Taylor ... or possibly both

    but RayG's website has this entry ...

    833 1893 Kellys 1893 SIMPSON John H Saw manager 54 Roebuck Road, Crookes Moor Road View


    which seems right for the sort of year ... and the naming of a 2nd, 3rd ... brand after an employee or business associate was not uncommon as I understand it. But there aren't any of the other saw makers listed down for that address ... so I don't know who he might have worked for.

    Cheers,
    Paul

  16. #15
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    Now that's a blast from the past Paul, we lived on Crookesmoor Road in the early sixties.
    Cheers,
    Jim

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