Thread: Dovetailing & riveting plane bodies

Many years ago I knew an old english craftsman with a plane damaged badly enough that you could see the dovetails. Knowing nothing about plane construction I questioned how these had been put together and was surprised when he essentially said it was done by whacking it with a hammer, and that's how he'd repair this one.

Ian's description and this old memory leads me to wonder if anybody has attempted to use heat to assist in the manufacture of these types of planes. I can imagine this could lead to all sorts of problems, but I can also imagine there are enough mad alchemists out there that it must have been tried, perhaps successfully?

Any ideas?

Cheers
OG.

When the brass work hardens, which it does pretty quickly . Heating it with a gas torch and cooling it anneals the brass and you can go on doing that until its perfect . Did you do that Ian ? Or was there no need ?
Brass and steel sole is a very nice touch . I have a Spiers smoother like that . Very lucky to have found one at a reasonable price. Never made on yet .
One day soon hopefully I will pick up and get moving on a Thumb plane I started building with Peter Mcbride instructing on our Thursday night get together's . Its all steel though no Brass in the body.

Rob

Originally Posted by Old gunnie

..... leads me to wonder if anybody has attempted to use heat to assist in the manufacture of these types of planes. I can imagine this could lead to all sorts of problems, but I can also imagine there are enough mad alchemists out there that it must have been tried, perhaps successfully?

Any ideas? ...

OG, not sure what you mean by "use heat", it could be interpreted different ways.

1. Melting the metal entirely & pouring it into a cast. Yes.
2. Were sides ever welded to the base? Yes, that was done late in the infill era, according to one book I have.
3. Heating the dovetails & pins during the peening process to anneal the brass because it can work-harden after being beaten-up. I've read on one of the forums of someone doing that, but can't remember where.

As far as I'm aware, the metal was usually cold-worked, back in the day. If you choose material like soft steel & the right alloys of brass, and don't get too ambitious about moving it too far, there should be no need to anneal it. The brass I use is 380 alloy, which is made for machining, but has moderate cold-working properties. It will flake & chip if you get too enthusiastic with the peening hammer, but I've found it works well enough to close dovetails satisfactorily.

On one of my planes I used some stuff that they called "silver bronze" and that was excellent to peen.

2 side.jpg 1 front.jpg

I wish I knew what it was for sure, & I wish I could get more 'cos that stuff peened like a dream!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by auscab

When the brass work hardens, which it does pretty quickly . Heating it with a gas torch and cooling it anneals the brass and you can go on doing that until its perfect . Did you do that Ian ? Or was there no need ? ......

Rob, you must've replied while I was typing, & I didn't notice until now that you'd answered too.

One reason I would be reluctant to try annealing the metal in this situation is that you'll need a fair bit of heat and it runs a risk of causing distortion. I've noticed when cutting brass plate that there is some stress in the plate, (which is not surprising, given that it's a rolled material and ordinary plate probably gets no further treatment after it spews out of the mill) so best not to play with fire, so to speak. Most 'authorities' advocate using bronze alloys, which are much more tolerant of being cold-worked, but it's just too difficult to get the stuff here, so I'm stuck with the 380 brass.

I've not had much trouble peening any of the dovetails on the planes I've made so far, but I've hedged my bets by using steel soles and brass sides. The steel is more forgiving than the brass, so what I've done is to cut the tails in the brass & fit these fairly accurately to the sole pins. Then I file a generous slope on the tails, so that most of the metal-movement is done with the steel. I've used mild steel, gauge-plate (a hardenable steel that comes dead soft), & stainless, and all cold-worked well. Not sure what alloy the SS is, and after reading a bit about stainless alloys & their properties, I was expecting it to split & flake, so I tried a couple of test pieces & it peened quite well, so went ahead & used it on this little 'chariot' plane: Finito.jpg

One of the D/Ts isn't quite perfect, but the rest filled very nicely, as you can see here when I started filing them flush: 7.jpg
The results were quite gratifying - only the blade can rust on this one.

Where you can strike trouble is using the 380 brass for riveting, which I've done a lot of lately. I found that the protrusion of the rivets (i.e. the amount you have to mushroom over) is critical. Too little & you can't fill the countersink in the workpiece, too much & the brass starts splitting & flaking before you've squashed it tightly into the countersink. But the good news is that if you do make a mess of a rivet, it's fairly simple to drill it out & re-do it, which you can't do with a wrecked dovetail, you get only one go at those! But once you get the hang of moving metal around, it's pretty easy to do an acceptable job, so you really should find time to finish that thumb plane. I've found there's just as much work in a little plane as a bigger one, so once you've got that under your belt, there's no limit on what you could tackle next....

Cheers,

With a mixed ferrous and nonferrous dovetail is that annealing one is hardening the other. Just something to keep in mind.

Ian,

I'm operating with the understanding that the joints will remain "still" and not come apart during peening as long as you have a good, initial fit. With that assumption, it seems to me that a wise step would be to leave them overly proud, then file the protrusion down such that just enough was left for peening, and then peen as needed. Is that what you do?

I recently had my first peening experience... I got an old Stanley 5 1/4 and the lateral adjuster was super sloppy. I took the frog off, laid it on the anvil portion of my metal vise, and peened the rivet until it tightened the lateral and stiffened the adjustment. A remarkably easy fix for a problem I often believed unfixable.

Anyway, I'm completely inexperienced with this technique, but it's interesting to see what can be achieved. Maybe one day...

Cheers,
Luke

Gentlemen, I find this a most interesting thread and dare I say, it has aroused an interest in this technique. The one thing that I feel is important other than the type of metal being used (correct me if I'm wrong) is good quality files, not the also-rans available at the green sheds and where do you source them.

Have a look at this link guys, some useful advice and choices for the brass on there, also a few links within to other great source of info. I'm yet to try my hand at making one [emoji848]

Metal Plane Making

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Originally Posted by DSEL74

With a mixed ferrous and nonferrous dovetail is that annealing one is hardening the other. Just something to keep in mind.

Very good point, Dale, if you are using gauge plate & brass, say. However, mild steel won't harden, so you'd be safe heating a brass/mild steel combo to anneal tee brass....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

.......I'm operating with the understanding that the joints will remain "still" and not come apart during peening as long as you have a good, initial fit. With that assumption, it seems to me that a wise step would be to leave them overly proud, then file the protrusion down such that just enough was left for peening, and then peen as needed. Is that what you do?....

Luke, when dovetailing a plane body, you make a 'buck', to which the parts are clamped and supported as much as possible against all the hammering. Sometimes the bits do want to move, despite your best efforts, so it's something you need to watch. I find that by having a neat fit between the initial tails & pins, and beating down the tails first, I can generally lock them up pretty well and keep it all in position. Once you start really closing up the gaps, it becomes self-clamping.

I guess you could leave extra protrusion on the parts & file off a bit before peening, but there's an awful lot of filing to be done as it is, so I prefer to get everything as close to ideal when cutting out. A bit of prior practice with some scraps of the metal you are plannng to join is highly recommended - you will quickly learn how much extra metal is required, and see how easy it is to get them squashed together. A well-peened joint or rivet looks pretty fugly when first done, but filing & sanding it all flush can make a miraculous change...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by rwbuild

Gentlemen, I find this a most interesting thread and dare I say, it has aroused an interest in this technique. The one thing that I feel is important other than the type of metal being used (correct me if I'm wrong) is good quality files, not the also-rans available at the green sheds and where do you source them.

Ray, you are spot-on! Good, sharp files are especially important for brass because the stuff is self-lubricating and a dull file skates on it & just won't 'bite'. As to where to get good ones, I have no idea! I keep trying various brands from the various tool shops but none last even half as long as the couple of remaining NOS Wiltshire & Nicholsons I have remaining, and they ain't cheap, either...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by botesmj1

Have a look at this link guys, some useful advice and choices for the brass on there, also a few links within to other great source of info. I'm yet to try my hand at making one....

Yep, Peter has done some very good WIPs on the Forum, too. Not only is he a dab-hand with metal, he has an encyclopaedic knowledge of old woodworking tools. It's a real pity he no longer wishes to take part in the Forum....

Best way to start is to get stuck in & make something - it's not as difficult as it looks!

Cheers,

I'm bumping this thread as a heads-up for anyone interested in plane-making & to give our home-grown woody mag a plug: the article I wrote for Australian Wood Review on making a riveted-bodied, 3/4 inch shoulder plane has just come out (issue # 99).

3-4 SP.jpg


The editorial restrictions mean you have to be very brief on detail in an article like this so I'd be happy to answer any questions or receive comments & critique from anyone. I'm largely self-taught on the metal-working, & I'm sure I have plenty to learn....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

I'm largely self-taught on the metal-working,

Yes, but you have the advantage of learning from someone who's a bloody good teacher