Thread: One for the saw masters

Originally Posted by MartinCH

..... Suspect it will be easy to damage the split nuts. One nut is missing......

If there's a decent slot remaining it's usually very easy to undo the nuts. However, it certainly can be a struggle at times, Ive struck a couple that were seized due to something getting into the threads, but mostly they are pretty good. The most common problem I've encountered is that the slot has been almost sanded away, either during initial fit-up or later, & what's left was cammed-out by people trying to tighten or undo them with poorly-fitting drivers. A cheap old bladed driver is soft enough to file easily into a good split-nut driver. File the end square & sharp & wide enough to get a good fit in whatever is left of the original slot to give it the best chance of gripping. I've got several home-made split-nut drivers made over the years & I don't hesitate to modify them as needed. If there is simply not enough slot to get a grip on at all, I've managed to loosen them with a fine punch sharpened to a chisel point. Once you move them even a tiny bit they usually give up & come quietly. When it comes time to replace the nuts you can usually tidy them up enough to give the driver a better grip, but they are often very thin so there's not much room to cut a deeper slot, all you can do is square the edges a bit to give the driver more purchase.

New nuts are very simple to make from a bit of brass bar, but matching the thread of the original bolts is the catch. Your saw bolts might be a common thread size, but most of those I've encountered did not match anything in my arsenal of taps. The threads tend to be much coarser than Whitworth or NC for the bolt diameters (which are surprisingly small on any old saws I've had apart). For a couple of users where original bolts were missing I just made new ones & used a 'standard' thread. It's the easy way, but not totally satisfactory. Someone is inevitably going to pull the handles off in the future & if they are mildly observant, they'll notice the different bolt (turned, not cast) and the different thread & put them back correctly, but I suspect there is a high chance of mix-ups & things being forced to go where they don't want to.

I'll leave the ageing to Paul - he's got the experience & reference collection to give a far more useful (& reliable!) opinion. All I could say is what you can clearly see yourself - it's English & old. The stamped branding puts it well back into the 1800os - once source I found says stamping was replaced by etching after the 1850s on American saws, but the Brits hung onto some things (like split nuts) long after the Yanks gave them up.

Over to Paul......

Cheers,

Thank Ian

Got brave and knocked the nut less bolt out
Snapped in the middle. Not me old break.
Thread non existent. I have split nut / bolt in my bucket of bits so will see if I can install that.
Curiously this one seems to be smaller than the others

Just noticed that there is a remnant of mr punch just above I sorby. This I guess that moves the saw dating to late 19th century.

Remains an old saw but not quite a historical curiosity

I'd say it's mid to late 1800s just as a guess. All of my English saws still have split nuts and a stamped plate and those nice heavy medallions.

If you can clean up the medallion a bit, I have a look through my copy of Simons Barley British saws and saw makers from 1660.

Cheers Matt.
Same book Mr Bushmillar as!

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'd say it's mid to late 1800s just as a guess. All of my English saws still have split nuts and a stamped plate and those nice heavy medallions.

Thats seems right David.

I went a bit off track suggesting earlier. With marking a simple I Sorby and no reference to Northern Toolworks or Mr Punch a source suggested the much earlier date. Now with a spotted Mr Punch trademark the saw cannot be earlier than say 1860 or so. Much more I cannot tell. The I I.sorby brand lasted in some for tell 1963. But given the style of the saw, I think it firmly made in later 18th century, not 19th.

One addition thing I have noted id the face of the medallion isn't brass, but rather a silver metal. If ithe medallions plated it must be thick as there no sign of peeling.

Matt

Better photo of "cleaner medallion"

Cheers


IMG_6410.jpg

It is interesting how the timber in the 2nd photo has changed compared to the first photo.

All that happen between the two photos is a not extensive clean with methylated spirits and a polish, (that was aimed at the medallion0. The timber as well as losing grime seems to lost many scratches and dings as well...

Martin,

I’m still looking but found this so far

That’s your medallion!!

Cheers Matt.

Indeed it is Matt.

Nicely your photo provides a date, that lines up with where other suggests the I.Sorby + Mr Punch logo and style of saw would date from.
So at this stage pending any other gleaned facts C.1880 it is. Baby saw, only 144 years old. Don't need to be too precious.

I'll sharpen it properly in the coming days and see how a heavier no taper plate performs compared to the Disstons.

Regards M

Martin

I would not disagree with any of the foregoing comments and dating is likely 1870 to 1890.

I think your saw was an export model and typically it featured three crowns, as in the ceremonial headgear, in conjunction with a kangaroo. I can see one crown above "R. Sorby" and there should be another two lower down to the left and right. I am not sure why this saw has a WS medallion as Robt Sorby certainly had their own branded medallions, with those bound for Australia depicting the "'Roo."

This is what you are searching for, but the stamp may be illegible :

Robert Sorby panel saw 002.jpg

Your saw has different placement for the writing and is different to the saw above and anything in Simon Barley's book.

If you are setting the teeth, make sure the saw plate is warm. A domestic oven at 50°/60°, if the oven will accommodate a full size saw and of course remove the handle, or leave it out under the hot Aussie sun. This is to avoid snapping off teeth or at least minimise the chances.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul


There are many Sorbies and other convuluted characters in this trail. This saw is I.Sorby and there's a remnant of a Mr Punch(faint) above. The dating seems right.
I haven't found enough saws (online) to know if the WS medallion was common for I.Sorby saws

Just to make sure confusion reigns, as I understand it, the I.Sorby company was named the I stood for J, I don't know what was used for I. So the company was named for a Mr John Sorby - obvious isn't it.

Thanks for the advise on setting the teeth. I remembered your story about breaking the teeth on a similar saw but I knew not about leaving the saw in the sun..




IMG_6399.jpg

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Martin

I would not disagree with any of the foregoing comments and dating is likely 1870 to 1890.

I think your saw was an export model and typically it featured three crowns, as in the ceremonial headgear, in conjunction with a kangaroo. I can see one crown above "R. Sorby" and there should be another two lower down to the left and right. I am not sure why this saw has a WS medallion as Robt Sorby certainly had their own branded medallions, with those bound for Australia depicting the "'Roo."

This is what you are searching for, but the stamp may be illegible :

Robert Sorby panel saw 002.jpg

Your saw has different placement for the writing and is different to the saw above and anything in Simon Barley's book.

If you are setting the teeth, make sure the saw plate is warm. A domestic oven at 50°/60°, if the oven will accommodate a full size saw and of course remove the handle, or leave it out under the hot Aussie sun. This is to avoid snapping off teeth or at least minimise the chances.

Regards
Paul

Martin,

It’s very nice that our resident Saw Historian finally pulled him self away from the degrading conversation about sparks an coal , on a wood work forum none the less [emoji849][emoji849], anyone would think he owns a Power station or something.

Some more pictures from Simons book.

If we just go by the shape, an placement of the saw hardware, using the saw handle development page(94) , think Paul might be spot on 1850

Cheers Matt.

Hi Mate,

Ah the power station thread, fortunately that has an Eastern states flavour so it has little sway here...

The Mr Punch trademark didn't exist until 1859. so that defines realest.
Given the shape and if the 1860 saw had the medallion, there would have been justification suggesting the saw dates from 1859. but I guess reasonable to suspect the saw dates from the 1860's


Good thing we not playing darts, the audience would need to fast on its feet.

Cheers M

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Hi Paul


There are many Sorbies and other convuluted characters in this trail. This saw is I.Sorby and there's a remnant of a Mr Punch(faint) above. The dating seems right.
I haven't found enough saws (online) to know if the WS medallion was common for I.Sorby saws

Just to make sure confusion reigns, as I understand it, the I.Sorby company was named the I stood for J, I don't know what was used for I. So the company was named for a Mr John Sorby - obvious isn't it.

Thanks for the advise on setting the teeth. I remembered your story about breaking the teeth on a similar saw but I knew not about leaving the saw in the sun..




IMG_6399.jpg

Martin

My apologies as I was off beam with this one. Agreed, it is a product of Turner, Naylor & Marples who marketed products under I Sorby. Apparently, the "I" was an old fashioned way of writing a "J".

I mistook the Mr. Punch trademark (acquired in 1856 by Joseph Turner according to Simon Barley, which dates the earliest possible age of the saw) for one of the three crowns. My mistake and I did not look far enough into the Turner history before assuming it was Robt Sorby: It just goes to show exactly what assumptions are the mother of.

You have reached the limit of my bravery in dating the saw too, but I would suggest pre-1900 is a safe bet.

A saw left in the Australian sun will be too hot to handle after an hour or so. That would make it at least 60°C, which is fine. Relying on the sun during winter may be a mistake, but temperatures during the other three seasons easily work well. I had a saw out yesterday when ambient reached 26°C and the plate was too hot to hold.

It seems I have taken by eye off the saw dating ball, but in my defense, I had been concentrating on the electrical ball. I will pay more attention for the future.

Regards
Paul

PS: Just on the electrical issue, seeing as how Matt has raised that ugly apparition, it is an Australia wide problem rather than just the Eastern Seaboard, but you know where to go for that discussion, should you choose to accept that mission.