Thread: Everything old is new again

Originally Posted by Claw Hama

I was told "not to worry about "those things" and just practice" (by my Grand Father), still practicing They do look pretty though.

Claw, I would agree with your grandfather to some extent. With a bit of practice, you shouldn't need a guide for regular sharpening. Once you get the hang of settling the file nicely in the gullet, and using even, firm strokes, all is well. I never saw my father use even a stick guide on any saw - he did it by eye & 'muscle memory', for sure.

I can sharpen ok freehand, and nearly always do (though I still struggle with really fine teeth, because the file can wobble a bit so easily), but if I have to do any serious jointing & re-forming of teeth, I have to use a guide of some sort to re-form the teeth. There is no way I can maintain a constant rake-angle without help. I presume a saw-doc who filed saws all day every day could do it by eye (or maybe even with closed eyes! ) but I sure as heck cannot. I tried it early in my saw-sharpening career, and the results would have made you fall about laughing! (I was going to put in a picture of the 'broken' mouth of an old horse to illustrate what they looked like, but it might be a bit gross for those not used to seeing blood & guts.. )

Cheers,

For sure Ian and as I said I'm still practicing. I did try a stick on the end of the file a few times but by then I think I had already set my brain on my Grandfathers course and I just couldn't see the point. I like to feel the flats of the file with both hands/thumbs, again I'm sure practice would fix that too.
And these little guys do look so pretty I could just have one for the sake of it.

Originally Posted by Claw Hama

I was told "not to worry about "those things" and just practice" (by my Grand Father), still practicing They do look pretty though.

I have to admire your grandfather's confidence. I am still setting up, reading like crazy, viewing everything I can on youtube and still find the concept daunting. I don't expect to be a jet at doing this right away, but I figure if I spend the time getting the right equipment, ensuring that I understand it, when I do have a go I will know exactly enough to understand how badly I ballsed it all up and know I still need to practice a hellava lot more.

Craig

Morbius, I think sometimes we can prepare too much! It's a product of the times we grew up in, perhaps, that we intellectualise some processes more than may be necessary. Because we don't see many of the old hand skills applied now, I think many folk don't appreciate just how amazingly accurate hands can be at repetitive tasks, with apparently little help from the thinking part of the brain. Of course the catch is, developing such skills, like the level of skill to file perfect teeth without a guide, takes practice and time to acquire. But paradoxically, despite all our labour-saving machines, time has become less available than it was, so we all look for quick fixes. By all means prepare yourself by understanding the process, and yes, some gadgetry can help you, but in the end you still have to acquire a bit of hand-eye co-ordination, and the only way to do that is to hop in & start filing.

If your experience follows the normal path, you'll botch a saw or two before you get the hang of it, but even the worst sharpening job in the world can be fixed (there've been a couple of examples posted over the last few months). It doesn't take long to learn how to make even teeth. It takes much more time to figure out what tooth profiles and sharpening angles do the best job for you, but that's where the real fun starts.....

Cheers,

Ian you make a good point, I tend to be in Morbius's mindset. I think it also comes down to experience in doing similar tasks and being used to having a good or better outcome.

If you haven't been around people who do this kind of thing and generally lack confidence, then you won't really know where to start and be cautious in the belief you may just make the thing worse. It is very easy when you start to be lost in a sea of information and trying to get your head around all the techniques and factors. Once you have an understanding of what you need to do and how to do it, it is then as you say muscle memory.

Like you say it is different times now to years past and many people have hardly used any form of tool some even seen one used. Everything is bought, or hired out because people are time poor and focus on lifestyle and intellectual careers. Hobbies generally include a beverage or a large screen. I come from one of those families where my Dad was gone from 6am until 8pm working a corporate job. Never had time for a family holiday or to hit a cricket ball let alone showing something in the shed. My generation all grew up with the development of computers as a pastime. I imagine there are many people out there to whom rolling up the sleeves is very foreign concept . Human nature shows us fear of the unknown is a major human condition.

This is why the forum and people on it here sharing there knowledge and often personal time is such a wonderful thing. Often these tasks that seem so daunting to some, almost a dark art are really quite simple once like you say get in there and have a go and just require practise to get good at.


Also each person has a different learning style. The three most common are visual, auditory, and kinaesthetic, So not everybody can learn from seeing it done, or even doing it, they need to read it or hear it explained. Most people are a combination at differing ratios with one of them being dominant. Mine are visual & kinaesthetic so some one showing me the ropes and guiding me through it are important elements for me. Never been great at the books until after I have already developed a basic physical understanding to relate the books back to.



Of course there are some people from the other camp also who just jump in and destroy a good tool.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

.....there are some people from the other camp also who just jump in and destroy a good tool....

True, Dale - and I have seen just how severely some things can be damaged by ham-fisted persistence!

The point I was trying to make is that you would have to try long & repeatedly to totally wreck a saw, there are dozens of potential sets of teeth to be had. So saw sharpening is one of those tasks that gives the beginner plenty of scope to have a go. If after a few re-jointings and re-tries you still have a big mess, you could still get someone to restore it to full glory, but I think anyone of average manual ability is likely to crack it after a couple of goes.

I do take your point that if you haven't seen people 'do stuff', you have a different mindset. My childhood couldn't have ben more different from yours, by the sound of it. I grew up on a farm, in an age where kids could do all sorts of things subsequent generations have no opportunity to do, and would probably not be allowed to by their parents. We were expected to do use all sorts of tools from a very early age, and learn to manage the risks. One of my brothers nearly sliced his foot off with an axe, but he was back cutting poles with us as soon as it healed up . I watched my father, my uncles & neighbors do things and had no fear of tackling anything they did, though I confess there were times when I should have! I don't think my father was irresponsible, he seemed to have a pretty good judgement of what to let us tackle, and when to say stop (if he was there!), but he often let us bite off a bit more than we could easily chew. If he saw we were really struggling, or likely to get hurt, he would show us the 'right' way or help sort it out, but still usually left us to finish the job. So perhaps that's why I like to encourage people to dive in at the deep end. After all, you can't really bring your full analytical or intellectual powers to bear until you actually apply them to the task....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

I have seen just how severely some things can be damaged by ham-fisted persistence!

Ian,

I have been guilty on both counts more than once Being both ham-fisted and persistent.

Not having seen people do this in real life - the whole mentoring thing makes learning these (now) unusual skills a bit more challenging. I am so grateful for YouTube. Not as good as visiting an expert, but better than trying to work it out from a verbal description. The downside, of course, is the number of dissenting opinions.

Craig

Originally Posted by Morbius

The downside, of course, is the number of dissenting opinions.

I think you have to go with your gut on whose opinion seems to be the most intelligent (Utube has some dubious types) and go with that. Then once you are up and running revisit some of the other techniques and see what you think with new eyes so to speak.