Thread: Do we need expensive hand tools?

Paul Sellers has a good approach I think. He doesn't see the need for expensive planes or chisels and uses them himself as a master craftsman and in his school in the hands of newbies. But he will recommend a newer more expensive version of a tool where he thinks it is indeed better. He often recommends the veritas router plane over the Stanley/records because of its better adjustability same with quality hand stitched rasps.

Originally Posted by A Duke

.....On the other hand the tailors did not welcome the sewing machine, it meant any one could sew....

Well, that may be true to point, but how well could they sew? I don't think you'd be seen dead in a suit made by me on my better half's very fancy, very expensive, sewing machine!

Everything said to date has some merit. If your skills aren't up there, better tools will help, but they sure as hell won't make you an expert overnight. You could equally say that only the experienced & skilled can fully appreciate and get the best from a really good tool. As others have said, some pretty fancy stuff has been made with pretty ordinary gear. Would those makers have spurned one of today's high-end tools if offered them? I doubt it. As has also been pointed out, there was a market for fancy tools since way back when. We human beings love our bling & love to flaunt it!

I've only been able to afford a few really decent tools over the last 25 years. Before that I had a pretty limited set of gear, but managed to produce a few things I can still live with. I don't think the quality of my work has improved much because I have some better tools, but it does happen a bit easier & quicker, I think. Some of that is due to increased experience too, so I think I've made my point - good tools help, but are no substitute for perseverance & practice (with adequate tools)....
Cheers,

Often it's more than just the utility value of the tools - "does it help me do job X better"; it's also "Do I enjoy using it more".

In the end, for the majority of people who don't particularly earn a living using hand planes or hand saws or Festool gold plated splinter tweezers, if it makes the creation process more enjoyable - even if their pine bread box with a layer of estapol still ends up looking like, well, a pine bread box with a layer of estapol - then it's been a worthwhile investment...just not necessarily on a financial level*.

I don't think there are many of us who, if pushed, could make an economically rational justification for their 'investment' in $5-10-20k worth of shed, $5-10-20-30k worth of tools and so on if it wasn't for the fact that we found it fun to do. It's kinda like 'investing' money in the pokies, or 'investing' in lottery tickets.


*A financial level is a new tool - simply sit your wallet on top of the counter at your local tool shop, place the financial level on top of your wallet, and if the bubble stays centred, it indicates that there is enough of a bulge in your wallet to let you buy that new tool! Simple!

Need. It's an interesting word.
Buyers of tools include hobbyists, tradespeople and collectors. Some might even be all three!
They all have different needs and sometimes our wants get mixed up with them.

While I agree with the general sentiment of the OP, even he admits that he has more tools than he needs! (All those #4s).
If we take hand planes as an example, Stanley (thanks to Mr Bailey), revolutionised the hand plane and made them in their millions.
However, they were still made to a price and many believe that they had their pinnacle in the early 1900's before the accountants started to dumb them down.
I believe that modern tool makers like LV and LN are making superior planes - albeit at a certain price point.

Despite this, some Stanley models are so scarce/collectable that they are more expensive than the modern equivalent.
Try finding a #51 Shooting plane or a #62 Low Angle Jack Plane for less than an LV equivalent.

Many also derive a lot of enjoyment from restoring and using tools that have a history and tell a story.
This helps justify many a second hand purchase but not all of these are cheap or needed.

Now do I need all this stuff. Hmmm, good question.

Do we need expensive hand tools ?

When you say " we " I think as a group, in this hand tool section, this place is mainly hobbyists, I at a total guess I would think 90% do it for a hobby .

I do it for a buck though, and I could not have got the work I get without them.
I could have built every thing I have ever made without them .
But I don't believe I would have had the same amount of work I have, with out them.

When you see old tool chests made really fancy and they get described as
"The tradesman of old made them like this to show a future boss or client the quality of his work" to help convince the client of what he could do. That certainly does work with the tools, as well as the box and the bench and the workshop . the good things that get made only sit around on the floor for people to see for a week after being finished, if that! their gone and your left looking at a pile of rough sawn wood for the next job.

I get people bringing partners back to see the tools they saw while they were here without them, it does not have to be expensive to thrill them , the well off, who don't know which end of a nail to hit , I have seen in fits of amazement at a bead or a simple OG mould being produced on a scrap in front of their eyes . I have been amazed by their reaction .
And it's the same when the special cabinet gets opened with the gems inside and you let them hold them. I tried to get a guy to use one once and have a go , "no no" he said and put it down ?? why I don't know ?
These people come back and buy , and bring in friends who are looking to buy.

And I find that using the old and rare on occasion is inspiring , it's beautiful to use a tool of the day on the type of wood that was used at the time , building in that style. It gives a clear insight , the clearest your going to get if you turn off the radio and the lights as to what it would be like back in those times . That's a pretty good thrill !!

To me , the expensive planes are the new custom made infill art works that a the rich doctor type, woodworker by hobby buy . That's who I imagine would be paying for them . I'm possibly wrong, they look to perfect to use! I think that's what is over the top though.

There are the tools that are in the collectable expensive range that do a job like no other tool can and there is no way I would have known it unless I bought it and tried . the Stanley 98 and 99 is the first that comes to mind . I don't know if any one reproduces them ?
A pair of snipe bills out of the moulding planes , nothing else [ hand tools ] can do what they do I think ?

Collectors of the fine tools come and go like we all do and all those tools come back to be available again

Rob

whats 'need' ?

no we don't need expensive hand tools

we want expensive hand tools.

people who make expensive tools persuade people who are unsure of what they need,,,,,that they 'need' them.

Hand tools aren't the focus of professional woodworking. Machines are…..so, its not really needed.

Of all the types of hand tools I have, I can only think of one that I can't get second hand at a flea market or garage sale. … the Japanese crosscut saw (and there not expensive so they don't count I suppose). I love those things.

I'm naturally turned off new tools anyway, because I feel anxiety in owning them. the worry about damaging them.

Just an opinion. not an expert on need. 2 cents worth

So what if richer people want to buy more expensive tools? I'm not one of them, but I am a collector and when I get the bug I can be hard to stop. I have a collection of wooden handled pen knives. Don't know why, but I came across one at a sale somewhere a few years back and liked the look of a well used tool and kept on buying. I got the bug with the Stanley's but luckily was able to stop my self in time and even sold some of them off for a tidy profit. I have kept six of them, two for their sentimentalism and four for their usefulness.

The tradey using tools to make a living, appreciates tools because they put food on the table, pay the rent and makes their job easier. To me, the tools are appreciated because they are helping me create stuff (in my own time) and their use is therapeutic. My favourite plane is a veritas shoulder plane, not because it is expensive and worked well straight out of the box, but because it is a gift from my wife. I really didn't need the plane, but I'm glad I got it.

The difference between "want" & "need" needn't be the cause for too much angst.

TT

Ratbag, I think you are confusing the gentleman woodworker with the journeyman joiner.

they are different people with different expectations for their tools and those expectations cannot be measured by the quality of the furniture produced.

While most people buying a Colin Clenton adjustable square might be considered gentleman woodworkers, the person who commissioned Colin to build his 600mm adjustable square was a journeyman joiner -- who uses it to square up biscuitted carcasses. The message for me is that even the journeyman appreciates the value of a tool that just does the job and does it superbly.

as to expensive tools ...
the tools I use the most are the ones which fit my hands the best, the ones which don't require a whole lot of fiddling to get them to just work.
Once you have used a back saw where the hang is just right for your hand and sawing action, you will know precisely what I mean.
my "favourite" chisel is my favourite because it always seems to be sharp (subconsciously I must keep it sharp) and it's usually just the right width, and although bought new it was not expensive.


I encourage readers and posters to read the writings of Toshio Odate who trained as an apprentice carpenter under his mother's brother in immediate post war Japan. Toshio's insights into when a person becomes ready to appreciate a fine tool are both sad (on a personal level) and enlightening, to say the least.

Sometimes, it may be incompetence and a lack of skill which suggests that top price can mask ineptitude. Golf clubs can be like that.

Sometimes, top price infers durability and reliability. Pfeil wood carving gouges are like that. Doesn't mean that my carvings are any more or less attractive.

Sometimes, top price carries a larger margin of safety. My brother has done more than 130 dives (scuba). Recently 20+m, 4C and zero visibility, to lead his dive team in the rediscovery of the location of a sacred stone called Mistaseni. I subsidize his kit. It's about the only thing I can do to have some peace of mind.

I'd ignore the critics and move forward. They can fill their boots.

However a Veritas or Lie-nielsen can and do out perform ...

That's a highly debatable statement. Perhaps there are some very difficult timbers in which one of these planes might result in less tear out, but in run of the mill cabinet work, in what way does one of those out perform a properly set up and sharpened Stanley #4 for example?

For me 'want' and 'need' are intertwined. I want to make things and to do that I need certain tools, I make therefore I am. I need to work with my hands to take a break from the kind of professional work I do to maintain my sweet demeanor, I think therefore I am.
Are expensive tools worth the money? It depends on the tool and the maker. For example, I have some expensive saws from well known custom makers that are great, and one that is not very good. I also have a variety of hand planes ranging from bottom of the barrel cheap to expensive. If the materials and execution are both proportionate to the price I find that the performance is noticeably better with few exceptions. The higher quality antique tools also perform well, if they are tuned up, in some cases they work as well as modern high end tools but rarely better.
I know from my experience making saws that making nice tools is an expensive proposition and I am therefore not reluctant to pay for excellence but it does sting when I don't get what pay for.
Power tools are somewhat different. In the case of modern power tools I do extensive online research before spending serious money. Some brands are uniformly good across the product line but they are a minority in my experience.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

However there is a ceiling above which the tool will not benefit you no matter how much more you pay. A $2500 infill plane will not perform any better in any quantifiable way then a $400 Veritas or Lie-nielsen.

No , but I know I would much rather be seen holding the infill doing my work . I would much rather open a cabinet and show a row of infills to an interested client . A row of shiny new planes may impress a schoolboy , not the educated collector type with an interest in history though.
The ones that pay for one to build ones furniture for them

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

However a Veritas or Lie-nielsen can and do out perform paint spattered, rust pitted worn out hand me down, no matter how much you fettle the bloody thing.

Bulldust!

Hi,
Of-course the price of a well fettled antique depends on whether time means money or keeps you out of the pub and saves you a whacking big DUY fine on the way home from lunch.

Regards

Gentleman ?

Whats a gentleman ?

Is he someone who has plenty of dough, that gives him the time to ponder what a gentleman is, and then ttys to become that person.
The word implys he's a good person. But is he, if he wants to 'look' like a gentleman.

I had an old neighbour once. she was in her 80's. And out of the blue one day across the fence, as older people tend to do, she said.

.. not all arrrrrrseholes die young ! ….especially the ones that say their not.

I thought she was nutter. But maybe she's got a point.

If I was inclined to label someone as a gentleman it be someone who talks very little. But then I suppose, thats what people who are hiding things do as well.

I think I'll just hang out with orangatungs. Imagine having an orangutang as an apprentice. A true gentleman. The real mckoy….. AND he doesn't NEED expensive tools.