Thread: Do we need expensive hand tools?

Originally Posted by rob streeper

For me 'want' and 'need' are intertwined. .

My wants were many.
My needs were great.
I have it all and I paid the freight.
But now I'm older and my truck is bogged.
My mind is going and my arteries clogged
My wants now dreams
My needs now small
But the tools of yesterday line the wall
When I go they'll still be there
So the wants and needs were just thin air.

The above verse was taken from the works of the great workshop poet Norris Stanley Berg, a titan among the shavings.

Originally Posted by apricotripper

Gentleman ?
I think I'll just hang out with orangatungs. Imagine having an orangutang as an apprentice. A true gentleman. The real mckoy….. AND he doesn't NEED expensive tools.

Chimp of the old block hey!!
Can he use a wrench or is that just monkeys
If you want toast for crib just stick bread under the gorilla


Yuk Yuk

Originally Posted by silentC

I don't know what a gentleman is, but there is a "gentleman's saw" or "gent's saw". They don't look very exotic though. I've got one and I paid about $5 for it at a market. I'm sure you can buy expensive ones from one of those fancy saw makers.




Pax_10in_Gents_Saw.jpg

DSCN0181.jpg

This is my tool kit that I keep at the house in the country. I have another whole shop full of stuff, but have not brought myself to bring my vintage Disstons and other stuff. Any way I have built a heck of a lot of stuff, with what probably amounts to $100 worth of tools picked up from the home store in Bangkok. It works, just need to adjust your thinking and methods. I do everything with this kit, no power tools at all. By the way note the "fancy" work bench.
workbench1_zps5785e682.jpg

I was going to pontificate about the balance between quality and cost and the true cost of poorly made inadequate tools...

But then the discussion got hijacked by some woodworking orangatang with a saw,

And since then I couldn't remember what I was going to say....

Ray

PS... If we are going to be comparing tools, I'm happy to let Derek win....

Another way to think about this issue comes to mind because of my experience in making saws. I produce saw parts in batches for efficiency which makes time and motion analysis more complicated but I estimate that it probably takes me the better part of two to three days to make a saw. How much is two or three days of my life worth? A calculation on the basis of my professional hourly rate shows that it doesn't make sense for me to make my own saws and that I can afford a ridiculously expensive set of saws. However, I like making things so I'll continue.

The disgusting and revolting thing about the work bench is that you get to work outdoors.
2C this AM and the snow line can't be more than 350m above the valley.
Sure, I can work outside but I have come to dislike cold and stiff hands.

Originally Posted by RayG

But then the discussion got hijacked by some woodworking orangatang with a saw,

hijacked ? ….. I was still on topic. We were talking about gentleman and needs. And I think orangatangs are gentle creatures. ( I mean man ancestors !…Is 'creature' politically incorrect ? who knows these days)

But now come to think of it…… they'll probably shiiit everywhere. Which means stepping in it….And their overzealous love may have them groping your from behind while on the table saw, trying to drive their tongues deep into your ears.

But clearly some have a great sense of PPE, which is better than 90% of some unclear population of people apparently. Bob !

I know a way to get this topic back on track ! …… a big overwhelming screen picture of an expensive gentleman's tool. DEREK ! You'll always win that way derek. cause I have a feeling the orangutang will win the pants dropping competition. (​joking)

​just an opinion. Not an expert on expertise or orangatungs. 2 cents worth

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Even a member who could arguably be described as the forum's biggest aficionado of handplanes purchased a Thicky/Jointer earlier this year, to do the heavy lifting.

Im in that category. I love hand work more than machine work. But time is important to me as, like most people with young families, I'm stretched too thin.

I've caved and bought an 8" jointer and a 15" thicknesser...which I have to say was probably the best money I've spent. I don't have expensive hand tools, my planes are Carter's and Stanley's. But I did buy a LN BU Jack that I use for my shooting board. It was also a great investment.

Would I buy a full set of HNT Gordon planes? Yes, in a heartbeat, providing I've won the lotto first.

Do expensive tools make the man? No that's stupid. One only has to watch season 1 of the woodwrights shop to see otherwise (which I've got, u have to buy it, it's great!)

I buy tools on a needs basis. I don't buy cheap modern tools (planes for eg). If I was to spend $50 or less I'd be looking for an old stanley/carter instead. I think there is a place for expensive modern tools, like Brett said, you do need to support tool makers unless u'd like everything made in China.

The tendency when this debate arises (which it does often) is for people to start talking about the difference between quality and cheap rubbish. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that you should make do with a $20 Medallist smoothing plane or a set of chisels from the $2 shop.

I think the question being asked, and the OP can correct me if I'm wrong, is do you need to buy those prestige items to 'get better'. Or in other words, is there anything wrong with the old user tools that you have now. Are they holding you back?

This is my beef with the argument that the prestige stuff performs better. I think there are some fringe cases where they do. I have seen what you can do with a Lie Nielsen LA smoother. But does my lack of ownership of one of those hold me back in any way? I don't think it does. There are some ridiculously gnarly bits of grain that I come across when working with hardwood that I have milled myself. If I can't handle it with the planes and card scraper, I use it for something else. But most of the time, a good sharp blade and a bit of patience gets you there.

Maybe I'm missing out on some spectacular grain figure, but I'm quite happy with what I'm producing, so where is the problem?

On the other hand, if you can afford to drop hundreds of dollars on one tool, go for it. You don't have to justify it to anyone. Just please don't tell me that my $30 tools are not up to it.

Expensive hand tools to me have better metals, better machined tolerances, moving parts move
smoothly without over travel. . . . . fastened parts don't fall off (like my Russian shotguns.)

If there's any performance differences in wood carving tools, you really do get what you pay for.
The elite brands of conventional gouges are British or European.
The elite brands of Pacific Northwest style carving tools are made in the PacNW (what a coincidence!)
There are a few, thousands of miles east, offering PacNW designs but I'm not so sure that they
have quite grasped to concepts.

Together with the steel alloy selected is the consistent competence to get the tempering & hardening done
correctly for the tool purpose. I can lay a few on my bench for you to try. I don't care if you're a wood carver or not.
It won't take you 5 minutes to begin to wonder what the Hello is wrong.

Sometimes, I got lucky and gambled and won with a $15 spokeshave which outperforms the $80.
$25 for a pair of Narex 1/2" skews from Lee Valley. . . . those kinds of things. You all know
that some turn out to be questionable, even to open paint cans.

But for any wood working or carving tools, this whole argument is moot if the owner
can't maintain the cabability of the tool. Degraded performance and the tools get blamed by some.
I am no more than competent to tune up wood carving edges. The result, now, is always
satisfactory.

The purchase of tools cheap or expensive is totally up to the purchaser.

I have seen hordes of guys drool over the second hand tools at the sydney show, then 5 minutes later they are doing the same thing at the Lei Neilson or terry gordon stands.

They are all happy with their purchases from both stands,

It does not matter the percieved quality of work the person is doing, they can go out and but a machine that does the work or spend hours with hand tools to produce the same work.

Granted there is times where it is quicker to get out a hand tool and do the job before setting up a motorised machine, so where is the difference.

The machine will produce a lot more quantity quicker than the hand tool. Go to the majority of joinerys and you will find very few hand tools, time is money and machines help to generate money.

We are all tool collectors in one way or another, to buy cheap or expensive is totally up to the individual person.

This argument can go on all day, just get out in the shed and be happy doing what you like to to with what you have.

Well my realistic personal answers / opinions are listed below...............................
I hope we are all seeking quality, enjoyment, and a sense of satisfaction whether they are new or used.
The country of manufacturer for new tools may be good or bad just check the return policy.
No-one wants an expensive new or used tool that doesn't perform well.
If a new tool is bad...... Let the world know so others are not ripped off......Review it online as such and Return it.
Yes. I sometimes support the woodworking hobby and retailers once in awhile.
Yes. I sometimes support modern retail tool manufacturing if it is affordable and of good quality.
Yes. I felt my most recent expensive purchase the MK 2 honing guide was more of a need for accuracy than desire.
Yes. I fully enjoy my "new" maybe used once garage sale. $30.00 River Wood #4 Smoothing plane.
Yes. If the internet "electronic smart world" establishes unrealistic pricing for obsolete used tools. I will have no choice other than buy new.
Yes. If you cannot restore hand tools. or Restoring simply isn't your hobby.
Yes. If you have the extra play money and want to spend your time working with wood more that metal and tool restoration.
Yes. If you feel you have been ripped off or scammed online. The overpriced like new mint tool was arrives worse than advertised
Yes. If you don't know anything about old tools and which are best to buy.
NO....
I have learned a lot about hand tool restoration. Spoke shave handles, hand crank drills ect. Rust removal and the list is still growing.
I have restored. hand planes through tuning and restoring a several "ugly ducklings" that perform nearly perfect.
Most affordable planes were typically old missing parts, broken parts, bad japanning even covered in grease, oil, or barn manure.
Paint removal, brass wire wheels, buffing wheels, repainting, flattening pitted soles. I learned to make homemade rear tote handles they're fun and time consuming.
What the odd thread size is this on my old tool ? Take your pick. Metric or SAE, Whitworth, BSW,
You hopefully over time will learn to check for missing parts or You may end up paying the online chop shop for tools.
You may or may not over time buy several used planes for parts that almost total the price of a new one.
If the previous owner was power grinder crazy you can re harden and temper it yourself or buy a new iron adding to the costs of your bargain tool.

I have a hammer which my grandfather brought 2nd hand over 100 years ago. He used daily for almost 60 years, my father then used it almost daily for some 30 years before I stole borrowed it (long term loan). I've used it regularly for at least the past 40 odd years. It is the best hammer I have ever used and it has only ever had 4 new handles and 2 new heads. Hows that for a good use from a 2nd hand tool.