Thread: Do we need expensive hand tools?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Yeah, damned good film. Clint finally found his perfect role - as a grumpy old bugger. I suspect he'd been gravitating towards such roles increasingly for some time. He may be "okay" as an actor, but he's a magnificent director.

Brett

He was once asked whether he thought he was a good actor. He replied that he thought that he did what he did well. Needless to say in sidestepping the question he set himself up for a political career. He is probably a better actor than he may seem and as you say he has an excellent reputation as a director.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Silent C

I think we (you) are getting into the realms of diminishing returns. The cheapest tools available may well be disappointing to put it mildly, but the super expensive tools may well be unnecessary. Somewhere in the middle is an optimum for value for money.

Regards
Paul

Aye, there is always going to be the law of diminishing returns. A plane worth $1000 does not automatically work 10x as well as one costing $100.

At the end of the day you have to ask yourself whether the tool you seek is to be used as tool alone, whether you want a marriage, a love affair or a business contract. I think we approach each with a different expectation in regard to costs and performance

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by Ratbag

Come settling up time I noticed a weird looking block plane behind the counter, apparently Lee Valley's latest: sort of a chrome-plated take on what George Jetson or Buck Rogers might use with a 60s retro/modernist theme. Would it work well on end-grain? Who knows, the smart-alec salesman wouldn't let me near it. Guess I'm a bit suss looking. How much? Wouldn't know, but I'm guessing not much change from a couple of hundred or so. It was one of those; if you've got to ask, then don't!

Would I like one.... well I've been thinking about that too. The attraction was surely there, but I'm afraid she's just right out of my league. Somehow it just wouldn't seem "right" to blow so much on so simple a tool. More to the point, I think I'd be vaguely embarrassed to be seen using such a wanton extravagance! Not that I care a whit for other's approval: simply put, it would be impolite to flaunt such "eye candy" in public.

I don't know who bought it; it wasn't there next time. Possibly a braver and more extravagant soul than I. Someone seduced by the curvaceous lines, the glitter of the chrome, the promise of all that inherent performance embodied in it's feminine curves. To me it's the equivalent of a trophy wife: to the purchaser, well it was obviously good value.

But to give Lee Valley, and other designers/innovators their due, congratulations for a brave and defiant take on what is for a mere pleb like me a fairly basic and relatively crude tool. A dash of style, a pinch of inspiration, and a gobbet of bravado. It's what keeps the world turning, and us moving forward.

I hope s/he enjoys her purchase, and does good work with it.

Ratbag

Did it look like this?

Lee valley plane.jpg

If it did, I understand completely. A marketing marvel. Sexy, racy and absolutely desireable. The embodiment of feminine attraction .

Regards
Paul

One thing for sure is that with out tools you cannot make anything. When buying a tool I don't need to ask wether I'm going to marry it or set up a business contract with it however I'm passionate about my tools that allow me the apply my craft. Acquire what you need to accomplish what you want to make.

Frank.

Yes it was the shiney one. The saucy, flirtatious little tart that she is....

But everyone knew she wasn't for me. The salesman knew - that's why he wouldn't let me near her. I knew, that's why I didn't ask how much for a "quickie".... fondle that is.

I think even SHE knew. She just enjoyed the attentions of a tool pervert, safe in the knowledge a long term relationship was quite out of the question.

As I said before: out of my league.

Originally Posted by Ratbag

On another sub-fora I was stupidly sucked into what was described as a "flame war" by a couple of posters with opposing viewpoints.

There were some interesting and valid arguments used in opposition to my opinions.

One in particular struck a nerve with me: that you need high quality (and expensive) new hand tools to achieve good results.

I have neither. My tools are generally old. Some positively ancient. Some of my oldest chisels (Ward & Rob't Sorby) picked up cheaply, gifted and inherited, are of the laminated steel variety, with a thin layer of extremely hard steel forge-welded to a softer body. These take an edge with difficulty, and hold it with tenacity. Others are Stanley-Titan and Marples, bought new in the 70s & 80s, or picked up from markets which perform well, and seem to have pretty good quality steels.

Likewise, my saws, from an eclectic mix of English & Australian makers seem to perform well. Teaching myself how to sharpen them resulted in requests for the service from colleagues and through word-of-mouth. There's a satisfaction in having a freshly sharpened saw positive "sing" its way through a board. However, there's no future in saw doctoring: it takes an hour or more to top, breast, set & file a saw in poor condition, and while the results are satisfying, the financial reward isn't. Sure, an embroidery needle will slide down between the neatly set rows of teeth, and the saw will cut well, but so will a $10 Jack.

Are these obscenely expensive Wetzloff or Lie Nielsen saw really better than a well-sharpened $10 Sandersen or Symmonds from the market? Likewise the chisels that cost tens of dollars, or hundreds in the case of some exotic smithied Japanese ones must be better than a $5 market pickup.

At some point the law of diminishing returns must apply. Or is the quantum of difference that great? I'm doubtful. Metallurgy, while a bit of a black art, isn't magic. Surely the products of mass production from the steel mills in Sheffield or Port Kembla a century ago aren't so far removed from those of contemporary mass production?

Hand planes are an even more extreme example. The cost of planes from premium makers beggars belief. All but one of mine are second hand, and old. Canadian, Australian and American Stanleys, an English Record T5 "Technical" Jack that was designed for schoolboys to use, a pre-war Stayset smoother & 3 in 1 shoulder/chisel/bullnose. None are all that special, yet after basic lapping, cleaning and fettling all seem to do good work. My most used plane, and my favourite, is a late 70s early 80s vintage 60 1/2 low angle block plane, now into it's 3rd or 4th blade. The only "new" plane I own.

An 8, 6, couple of 4 1/2s, a few 4s, a 3 (my favourite smoother) a few Blocks, a Carter "78", combi shoulder/bullnose and a Router Plane. Worth I guess a couple of hundred the lot.

Yet I have been told that I should spend thousands on a new suite of HNT Gordon (whoever s/he is) planes to be more effective. Why?
I don't get it.

Sure, there's expensive old planes too. I've seen some fairly ratty old Spiers, Mathiesons and the fabled Norris planes sell for literally King's ransoms. The primary reason, I suspect, is more to do with their rarity than their utility. A hand made, hand dovetailed, gunmetal & brass rosewood stuffed Panel Plane is a thing of beauty to behold. Probably even a work of art. I'm sure it also planes well too. But few can afford to buy one, and even fewer can afford to actually use one, for fear of damaging such a precious item. I never will. The deposit on my house was less money than one of these cost.

Given the amount of time to make, and the level of skill involved in their construction, they were always expensive and rare. In fact, as millions of lesser tools are worn out, damaged and lost these rare beauties would have been treasured and preserved. Meaning that back in the day of their construction (late 19th/ early 20th centuries) they were relatively even rarer then than now. Given a journeyman's meagre wages, it's more likely that "gentleman hobbyists" were the makers' key customers.

Is that still the case today? Do most of us "make do" with old, recycled tools acquired cheaply and restored to usefulness? Are the products of Lie Nielsen, Veritas, HNT Gordon and Wetzloff et. al. really for the well heeled connosseur hobbyist or for everyman?

Who uses these fancy, expensive and beautifully designed wonders, & are they actually as good as the makers and marketers would have us believe?

Ratbag

Thank you for this most engaging thread.

Truly there are many levels on which to discuss. I think the comparison between revered old tools and expensive new tools is a particularly relevant issue. The fact is that quality lasts and it enables people with differing budgets to participate in their hobby at a comfortable level.

If it provides enjoyment it doesn't matter what it costs providing you can afford it.

Justification is a strange beast. For years I followed that maxim. If I was embarking on a project and it needed a specific tool (other than me that is ) I bought it: The justification was that it was saving me money over engaging somebody else to do the job.

Whilst I still have that underlining philosophy I have begun to "enjoy" using woodworking tools that have a degree of tactility to them. It is in itself a therapy. In fact I have recently joined the collector ranks.

Is it an obsession? No, I can stop any time I want. Oh allright:Probably an obsession. However, my handsaws are all destined to be users, albeit not very often because of the numbers. There is no place for a handsaw I don't intend to use.

I often use analogies and a particular favourite is the automobile. There are old classics that have lasted and appear highly desireable, but they have largely been superseded in their usefulness by the modern car. Do the old cars do the same job? Yes.

Do they do it as well? Sometimes but not always. Handtools in some ways are more simple and less likely to break down and the classics can be very desirable.

Regards
Paul

I think I'm destined to soldier on with my old but useful, worn but familiar tools.

At least I can console myself safe in the knowledge that all that bling, all the superior design and embodied performance would be wasted on my meagre abilities.

Nothing is wasted if you enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Is it an obsession? No, I can stop any time I want. Oh allright:Probably an obsession.

I say nothing (even though I have all the details ).

Originally Posted by RayG

This thread needs a little light relief...

I confess to feeling at one with the orangutang featured earlier.... (here he is again, in case you missed it) I know he is making a complete hash of whatever project his tiny simian mind has concocted.... that's pretty much how I feel when things go wrong...

And I know just how to fix it... I just have to buy that Wenzloff Kenyon inspired panel saw and everything will magically fit perfectly and the sun will shine again... hang the expense..



So, do you need expensive tools, of course you do, it makes you feel better and you can blame all your previous failures on those cheap badly designed inadequate tools.. low cost therapy...

So there you have it, cheap yellow plastic handled hard point saws are only for orangatangs, Ridiculously expensive Wenzloff Kenyons are for the rest of us...

Ray

so priorities are….

Expensive tools first for selfish feel good reasons…...then ….. Helping say refugees and children.


No offence to the starter of the thread but I think the threads title should be…….

How much would you pay for these types of hand tools ?

handsaws
chisels
hammers
etc

Then there wouldn't be confusion and debate due to the hugely differing interpretations of

'Need'….and ….'expensive'

because to me, like most Australians, our needs are well taken care of. Most of our concerns are wants. So many wants that too many of them are confused as needs.

And Ray, I think its too assuming that the orangutang is making a mess of his job. How well he does depends on what exactly he's up to.
And Ray, just quietly, I'm a little unimpressed that your making fun of a gentleman behind his back. Whatever has he done to you ?

Personally, I'm quite impressed with anyone that can grip wood with there foot.

Originally Posted by apricotripper

Personally, I'm quite impressed with anyone that can grip wood with there foot.

Japanese woodworkers do it all the time... mind you, they have special shoes... or is it special feet?


And yes, I think that we often buy expensive tools to feel better about our work and ourselves.. making your own tools is even better...

I'll never be able to afford a Karl Holtey plane, but I won't critisise someone who does and who can afford it. Their money their choice.

Ray

Originally Posted by apricotripper

so priorities are….

Expensive tools first for selfish feel good reasons…...then ….. Helping say refugees and children.


No offence to the starter of the thread but I think the threads title should be…….

How much would you pay for these types of hand tools ?

handsaws
chisels
hammers
etc

Then there wouldn't be confusion and debate due to the hugely differing interpretations of

'Need'….and ….'expensive'

because to me, like most Australians, our needs are well taken care of. Most of our concerns are wants. So many wants that too many of them are confused as needs.

And Ray, I think its too assuming that the orangutang is making a mess of his job. How well he does depends on what exactly he's up to.
And Ray, just quietly, I'm a little unimpressed that your making fun of a gentleman behind his back. Whatever has he done to you ?

Personally, I'm quite impressed with anyone that can grip wood with there foot.

JD

I guess that extravagance can be levelled at anybody in the affluent Western world. It is not just our woodworking tools, it is our whole way of life. We are indulgent, wasteful and, as far as the impoverished are concerned, on a different planet.

Just the fact that we are conversing here on the forums means at the very least we have access to electricity, have a computer and the wherewith all to run these devices. Where does charity begin? Where does extravagance end? I don't know.

One thing I do know is that if you are impressed with somebody who can grip wood (besides Clyde's compatriot) with his foot, this bloke is going to have your undying admiration. I honestly don't think I can add any comment to his humility, perseverance, skill and his tool kit.

http://vimeo.com/23095780

Regards
Paul

Wow. Thanks for posting that movie Paul.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I say nothing (even though I have all the details ).

.

Didn't we have a "D" notice on that?



Regards
Paul