Thread: Do we need expensive hand tools?

Just because it is old, doesn't make it better.
Otherwise you might still be sitting on one of these:
guarderobe_01a.jpg
For more examples of the old ways see here:
http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/20...r-convenience/

Originally Posted by hiroller

Just because it is old, doesn't make it better.
Otherwise you might still be sitting on one of these:
guarderobe_01a.jpg
For more examples of the old ways see here:
http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/20...r-convenience/

Better in one important way: Impossible to clog it.

Travelling the subcontinent in my young & carefree days in the early 80s I noticed the most trains (still steam then) had only a hole in the floor that one squatted over.

Yet they still managed to block! It's pretty challenging to the constitution to "go" over a foetid, maggot writhing pile in a Pakistani summer.

It makes the old military field latrines seem positively hygenic by comparison.

Originally Posted by hiroller

Just because it is old, doesn't make it better.
Otherwise you might still be sitting on one of these:
For more examples of the old ways see here:

I may be a little scattered in the bonce power department but didn't DC from Perth warn us in his confiscated post a couple od days ago that this is where this thread would end up??

Originally Posted by RayG

I'll never be able to afford a Karl Holtey plane, but I won't critisise someone who does and who can afford it. Their money their choice.

Ray

….spose your right. Theres no point in critising someone who can afford it. Can only bring you personal trouble. Or it implys jealousy. Better let them do what they want . After all, they might come after you. They may have the money and power to get you reeeeal good.

Better to pick on defenceless orangutangs eh Ray with plastic handled saws.

But, what would you do though IF the orangutang was loaded ? would you risk critising him then ?

I think I used to work for that bloke...

Originally Posted by apricotripper

Better to pick on defenceless orangutangs eh Ray with plastic handled saws.

Hey, don't insult my mate the Orangutang, he is my inspiration...

He is focussed on the task in hand, it doesn't matter to him that he's been lumbered with a substandard saw, he does his best with what he's got... who can ask for more.

Ray

Originally Posted by silentC

I think I used to work for that bloke...

Was a good bloke?

Originally Posted by apricotripper

defenceless orangutangs ... with plastic handled saws

Not my definition of 'defenceless'
... sounds closer to 'here, have all the bananas you require'.

Paul

May I remind people that this forum does not permit the sort of language that was posted here before I deleted it.

We actively encourage the participation of school students on this forum and that language was barely suitable for the front bar of your local pub.

Can we try and keep some standards here?

Not happy.

This thread has prob ran its course, u could always consider closing it...

The other thing to look at is are you good enough to recognise what level of tool you need.

Sometimes purchases can be more aspirational (If I have problems getting good results, then I know it's me, not the tool) than practical.

For example, taking an example where there is less debate (on this forum, anyway) Canon make digital cameras that span the range all the way from Ozito to Festool.

For my occasional (professional, as in I get paid at non hobby rates to do it) use, their DSLR series runs roughly from NNND to NND and finally ND, with the NNND cameras being the entry level prosumer models (maybe green Bosch) and the ND models (Festool or Lie-Nieson) being their "use this on the moon" type camera.

Realistically, for the photos I take, there would be absolutely no important improvement in my cash to effort ratio if shot on any of them. The model that I choose to use (a NND series) was chosen not on primary features (ability to take pictures) but things like the availability of a flip-out screen on the back (so I can see what I'm shooting without getting in line of sight of the back of the camera) and the ability to take HD video. In this case the tool has already exceeded my needs and I'm just buying convenience.

I posted earlier suggesting people read some of what Toshio Odate has written on the art and soul of Japanese tools as for me his words strike a chord.

To paraphrase a little from what wrote in the afterword of one of his books where he reflects on the "now" of the US compared to his time as an apprentice in immediate post war Japan:

"For any type of Japanese tool there are about 3 level of quality: the low level (inexpensive tools of low quality), the middle level (reasonably priced tools that are well forged), and the high level (extremely expensive tools of the highest quality).
Most craftsmen depended on middle-level blades forged by common blacksmiths. These tools were not decorative, but they were comfortable to use and cut well. Craftsmen treated these tools very well and respected them for the hard work they had to do.

"Today, however, many sophisticated, small power tools are common in society. Naturally the craftsmen use them, and to some extent they have taken over the job of the middle level tools, leaving society the very cheap or the very expensive tools. In addition, many middle level tools that are being produced are made to look like high level tools ... though the urge to add decoration to a tool can express the love of a craftsmen for the tool ... the true purpose of a tool is to be productive, not pretty."

Those last few sentences are I believe very pertinent to this debate. The bling on a Lie Nielsen or Veritas plane, in part allows the user to express their love for the tool, likewise the patina on an old Stanley brought back to life. If both tools are equally productive in the hands of a craftsman, they are equivalent. If one is more productive than another they are not.

There is no right answer as to which is required to do good work.

Originally Posted by ian

Those last few sentences are I believe very pertinent to this debate. The bling on a Lie Nielsen or Veritas plane, in part allows the user to express their love for the tool, likewise the patina on an old Stanley brought back to life. If both tools are equally productive in the hands of a craftsman, they are equivalent. If one is more productive than another they are not.

There is no right answer as to which is required to do good work.

so, If they both are equally productive in the hands of a craftsman……THEN……wouldn't that suggest you DONT need the expensive tool. That they are actually NOT equivalent….that there IS a right answer to the thread title ' Do we need expensive hand tools ' (answer:> no)

Isn't it more like…...

if you love a particular tool for ANY reason (probably having nothing to do with production), you'll be motivated to find words to justify buying/keeping that tool. A motivation that tempts one to use the words like 'need' in describing that tool.