Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 3456789 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 123
  1. #106
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    10,810

    Default

    Perhaps a more appropriate topic might be: "Which premium/modern tools would you purchase because they offer a performance that vintage tools cannot?".


    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  2. # ADS
    Google Adsense Advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Posts
    Many





     
  3. #107
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    kyogle N.S.W
    Age
    50
    Posts
    4,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    Perhaps a more appropriate topic might be: "Which premium/modern tools would you purchase because they offer a performance that vintage tools cannot?".


    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Yeh, you gotta be careful there Derek.

    Because suggesting that implies immediate bias towards premium/modern tools. ie. a need to justify purchases you've already made. because of possibly developing a bond with your premium/modern tools and/or you have a fear towards looking like you really don't need your premium/modern tools.

    After all there is one thing for certain about a gentleman. He is objective. (obviously/apparently)

    just an opinion. not an expert on needs to justify…bonding…or the fear associated with purchases of modern/premium tools. 2 cents worth.

    (are you on my side this thread ?….. because if you are, you must be made to feel obligated to say you like my post…… not really… but I did hear the person who gets the most likes wins a prize at the end of the year)

  4. #108
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    10,810

    Default

    Hi Jake

    While I own a good number of modern/premium tools, that does not mean that I am on the "side" of anything at all. Don't forget I have also built a lot of my tools - I could just as easily be on the side of self-sufficiency. My passion is design, and this is as much about designing and building tools and furniture (although I do prefer building furniture more). I am not precious about my tools. I do not have tools that are not for use, and they all get used hard. A tool is a tool .. just that some are better quality than others, and I enjoy using them all the more for this.

    I have already stated (earlier) that one does not need expensive tools. Hell, in an earlier thread I demoed how a basic Stanley #3 could outperform a LN #3 if set up correctly. The enjoyment of a more expensive tool (which is a relative statement - what is "expensive") is not the same as the need for an expensive tool.

    I could say that this is the difference between an amateur and a pro, but there are exceptions to every rule.

    I also noted before that tools do not make a woodworker. It always comes down to two things - skill and sharp. (Can't leave out bloody sharp, can we? ). But skill will trump all.

    Oh, and Jake, I do like your post .... which one are we talking about ..

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  5. #109
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Macksville
    Age
    62
    Posts
    390

    Default

    As someone who is only starting to get into woodwork, but with many years of buying & using other tools, I'm approaching my woodwork tool acquisitions as I have always done. For those tools that I won't use much, the cheaper ones will do, but for the ones that will see a lot of use, I will buy the best I can afford. I've splurged on a LV LA block plane, their cross, rip & dovetail saws and No. 4 plane (picked up 2nd hand for a price too good to pass up). I also picked up a set of Narex chisels at a good price from the forum market place. I figure these tools will be the ones that I will use most often. I have a collection of older, both inherited & bought, of other planes, saws, braces, bits & other odds & ends.
    As an engineer, I also appreciate the design that goes into tools like LV, but also the beauty of the old ornate tools.

    My thoughts are that the old, second hand tools that are still in good working order today were probably expensive in their day, as the cheap ones would have worn out or broken long ago. That makes me think it is my duty to woodworkers of the future to buy some expensive good quality tools so that they will have some good second hand tools available, as the old tools we have access to will probably be worn out or sitting on some collectors shelf.

  6. #110
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    back in Alberta for a while
    Age
    68
    Posts
    12,006

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by apricotripper View Post
    so, If they both are equally productive in the hands of a craftsman……THEN……wouldn't that suggest you DONT need the expensive tool. That they are actually NOT equivalent….that there IS a right answer to the thread title ' Do we need expensive hand tools ' (answer:> no)
    Hi Jake

    you are missing the point

    A craftsman can do good work with almost any WELL TUNED and SHARP tool.

    A craftsman might choose to buy a more expensive tool because doing so will provide some innate internal satisfaction and perhaps demonstrate to a potential client that the quality, care and respect they have for their tools will be reflected in the piece they create for the client. In a way it's no different to keeping the show room clean. Both show that the craftsman cares.

    or it might be a cost - time thing.
    Time spend tuning and restoring a $40 buy to as good as it can be, is time not available to earn a living making and selling stuff.


    But what is expensive?
    Last time I looked, a reconditioned ready to go Stanley bedrock from Jim Davey was very expensive compared to what you might find at a tool sale. The difference represents the value of Jim's time spent reconditioning the plane.

    In 2014, a new LN plane can be bought for about half the fortnightly pension. What was the relative cost of a new Stanley in 1950?


    so using Toshio's scale, what some consider expensive are really only middle level tools.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  7. #111
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    kyogle N.S.W
    Age
    50
    Posts
    4,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    Hi Jake

    you are missing the point
    I spose, either I'm missing the point, OR your missing the point OR we're both not getting it. Because, I am biased to my opinion, with respect, I'm gonna say…..your missing the point.

    I think a craftsman can do good work with anything really, like you say as long as its sharp. I mean even the plane tears the wood too badly, you can always take the blade out and just scrape with the blade alone. ……..its all about time I think. Getting the job done fast enough to compete with the other blokes else they take the jobs from you….. but then 'good work' is also subjective, because it means different things in different parts of the world.

    IMO, Its all so subjective. Like a lot things in life. so many varing interpretations of things and the consequential misunderstandings and needs to be right…. and needs to guide others in the 'right' direction because of the probable programming we've had since birth which surpasses even common sense sometimes (whatever that is...just an opinion on whats probable). No wonder people like to say 'whatever' a lot.

    Reminds me of the morning I found Roger on my front steps having a fag(below) . I thought ' do I really have to deal with this bloke again. Another loaded bloke with delusions of grandeur'…. Then I thought ' I better. After all he does buy my stuff and he is a True gentleman '

    …. I don't know what he'd been up to that night, but it didn't look good. He was sitting with his head slumped between his legs. He had blood all over his fancy suit. Toupee was all lop sided. Eyes were bloodshot. He stunk! ..like I don't what ! ..it was that bad.. ….



    I went up to him quickly,,,,,, put my arm around him and said ' oh maaaate ! …Rog !……whats happened ! '
    he said ' (sniff) ….I really need to (sniff) talk … I feel (sniff) so (sniff) misunderstood '
    I didn't know what to say so I just hit the play button.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckv6-yhnIY

    The music set him off. Sudddenly he burst into tears. It was infectious. I started to cry too (didn't even feel like crying. Guess its a bit like yawning). We just sat there hugging each other bawling for 2:42 minutes. Not sure exactly why I chose that song. I'm not even religious…..

    Then he said …… ' I love you'…… I tried. I really did try to say I love you back, but I just couldn't bring myself to say it…..Big mistake ! … Not clever to displease people with money.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #112
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Victoria
    Posts
    362

    Default That was then, this is now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post

    But what is expensive? In 2014, a new LN plane can be bought for about half the fortnightly pension. What was the relative cost of a new Stanley in 1950?
    .
    Interesting point. Did some work earlier this year on the cost of Titan chisels over time against average weekly earnings of the day. Some results are as follows.

    In 1951, a one inch 101 (registered chisel) retailed for the equivalent of 60 cents. At that time average weekly earnings (AWE) were $22. YES, twenty two dollars. The chisel cost 2.7% of AWE.
    In 1969 the same chisel cost $2.03 and the AWE were $69 yielding 2.9% of AWE. That was about the end of the Titan era so thay are not around to compare today in a new, retail sense however a middle range one inch chisel from Bunnings (Irwin??) costs about $38 but AWE are now a staggering $1500 which yields 2.5% of AWE. Thus chisels of this standard are a very constant percentage of AWE throughout. However today, a second hand Titan 101 in good nick averages about $20 on a cross valuation between ebay, markets and HTPAA sales. Against the AWE today this yields 1.3%. Half the relative cost of its hey day. But not relevant unless its quality against todays tools are known.

    All the above is subject to peer review so go for it. Assumed the Titan chisels were a mid range tool of its time. Bergs usually cost 20% or so more but are much, much more valuable now. Chisel prices are from adverts and price lists of the day and AWE's are from the ABS. Current chisel price is from Bunnings. Pounds shillings and pence conversions as per Government tables. Realise agreeing on a Titan chisel secondhand cost and/or relevant quality today could be problematic but I think it's in the ballpark. Would love some enterprising soul to compare some other tools. Stanley planes were mentioned??


    .

  9. #113
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Armadale Perth WA
    Age
    54
    Posts
    4,524

    Default

    I found a link once regarding the issues in comparing historical costs to the present day.
    There were 4 or 6 or something different proposed methods of comparison ...
    Fun stuff.
    Paul

  10. #114
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Victoria
    Posts
    362

    Default That was then, this is now 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pmcgee View Post
    I found a link once regarding the issues in comparing historical costs to the present day.
    There were 4 or 6 or something different proposed methods of comparison ...
    Paul
    Whatever method used is always subjective and fraught with argument. Maybe an economist on the forum can help out, What is missing of course is the mores and "feel" attached to the value of money sixty years ago, Was 2,5% of your meagre weekly earnings for a mere chisel thought to be a reasonable item to spend your money on compared to the other demands on your budget?? I guess if you were a tradesman you had to but were they looked upon as expensive?. As an illustration of how things change. Just think of how much we now spend on communications (mobile phone, computer email etc etc, ipad,) and entertainment (foxtel, apps, facebook etc.) as a proportion of our income. These expenses didn't exist twenty years ago!

    I haven't even started on the relative quality of tools past.

  11. #115
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    161

    Default

    3 or 4 years ago I needed a shoulder plane. now, I'm generally a vintage plane buyer, for a number of reasons. firstly, I'm a cheapskate. I get them when I can find them at yard sales and such for pittance. if I find something really nice and have cash burning a hole in my pocket I might get up into the ebay lowball range, but that's rare. if I find myself wanting something a little unusual I'll troll ebay, craigslist and what have you until I figure out just how cheap I can get it, then grit my teeth and go. usually the planes I bring home need a dip in the electrolysis tank, cleaning, fettling, sharpening... which I enjoy doing. if I need something a bit unusual, need it quickly and need it in working shape right away, I have to make a decision. this was the case with needing a shoulder plane. I could wait a week or so, but not much more. I checked out ebay. there were a few, some were pretty nice looking with a price to match, but most looked worn out, missing parts or otherwise dubious, and who knows what the price would be by the time the auctions ended. I made a few calls, but didn't come up with anything. I ended up buying the veritas medium shoulder plane. it was in the price range of the nicer vintage planes on ebay. it wasn't as cool looking as some of them, but I knew I could open the box and use it. so even though I paid a bit more than I might have for a vintage plane, especially if I was willing to hunt about for a while longer, the price paid was completely in line with my needs. I will say that it is a fine bit of tooling, and that I could likely have gotten on entirely satisfactorily with something much less costly, say a wood bodied skew rabbet (which I'd still like to have...), but for my needs at that time it wasn't out of line in terms of price. I guess the point of this ramble is that expensive hand tools aren't always expensive.

  12. #116
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Pambula
    Age
    58
    Posts
    12,779

    Default

    When I found myself in exactly the same predicament some time ago, needing a 3/4" shoulder plane, I fired off an email to a tool dealer in QLD. He sent me a 'user' #92, which means in a usable condition with reasonable amount of blade and no missing bits. It was a bit on trust because I was relying on him to select one for me but I was more than happy with what I got, and it cost me about $100 less than the Veritas. All it needed was a sharpen and it's a great little plane. Does the job I wanted it for very well.
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  13. #117
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    kyogle N.S.W
    Age
    50
    Posts
    4,844

    Default Go to the source

    I think the answer to this thread is so obscure that nobody really knows. Too hard to find the truth. So I think the only real way to bypass grouping and individual biases and the fears that produce the lies, is to talk to the ultimate gentleman…… That be, your god/thing/bestest of best bloke/person……. For me thats Jesus ! …………He's got an obligation to be honest. Its in his contract.

    So last night I attempted to get back in touch with him and I finally got through………. I was thrilled ! ……Must have caught him in a good mood cause it didn't end well last time we spoke.

    so I said……….so Jesus…. what do you think?….. Do we need expensive tools ?

    He said…….. .. Well Jake, it depends on what 'need' and 'expensive' really means. If 'need' means something you must have to just stay alive then really we don't need many tools at all, let alone most of the stuff that we'll make with the tools. Speaking for myself, if I 'needed' expensive stuff back when I was on the tools, like you guys apparently 'need' these days, I very much doubt christanity would have even taken off to begin with.

    I said…… what do you mean ? How does 'tool needs' relate with christianity ?

    he said…….. Well, think about the sort of sfuff we had back then. You know what I had to sharpen with ? ….. A bloody rock! …..Some blokes were lucky. They had smooth bricks and fancy roman steel. Not me. All I had was bloody rocks and Davo's crappy steel from down the road. ….. AND we didn't have routers uno, like you blokes have nowadays. I would never have left my trade if we had routers.

    I said …. but routers are noisy and dusty, obnoxious over efficient machines that can kill ! …. why would you want that ?


    He said……Get real banana peal. You sound like Mum. She wanted me to stick with it too, but I soon realised I had another talent…….. I had one of those deep reassuring voices and good looks that attracted the ladys. And I seemed to be able to say the right thing at the right time…..think about it……. imagine what happens when ontop of all those attributes, you manage to convince women that your the son of god !…… a few weeks of that, and you NEVER look back mate. trust me. Bugger woodwork.

    I said….. you mean, christianity took off, because, it got you more feminine attention ?

    he said……your not the sharpest tool in the shed are ya Jake !…….. yes, absolutely ! That , and the fact that woodwork was getting painful. Just got tied of getting a sharp edge only to find, it was blunt after only a couple of passes. Spend half your day sharpening. uno ?

    I said…… spose, but maybe if you'd stuck with it, then no christianity would have been a good thing. Uno, no crusades !

    He said……. LOOK ! …… I'm not responsible for the crusades !

    I said……. But aren't you a all knowing wise soul that knows best. Shorely, it be one of the easier things to foresee.

    He said….. Could you foresee that happening ? come on.

    I said……. no, but then I'm not the son of god. But couldn't you even at least, latter on, centuries down the track, being such a powerful entity do a little mind control from the clouds to encourage the crusaders, to instead butchering countless thousands of innocent women and children, to maybe…..uno getting them to take up something more peaceful. Like knitting or say…..oragami ?

    he said……. LOOK ! …. I JUST WANTED THE LADYS…ok….WAS TIRED OF WOODWORK BECAUSE OF MY CRAPPY TOOLS……AND I DIDN'T WANT TO WORK…who wants to work if they don't have to……is that too much to ask….. I DIDN'T CAUSE THE CRUSADES. its not my fault. JUST ….JUST……RACK OFF !

    I said……. fair enough. I thought, jez that bloke can carry on.

  14. #118
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Millmerran,QLD
    Age
    73
    Posts
    11,095

    Default



    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  15. #119
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by apricotripper View Post
    I think the answer to this thread is so obscure that nobody really knows. Too hard to find the truth. So I think the only real way to bypass grouping and individual biases and the fears that produce the lies, is to talk to the ultimate gentleman…… That be, your god/thing/bestest of best bloke/person……. For me thats Jesus ! …………He's got an obligation to be honest. Its in his contract.

    So last night I attempted to get back in touch with him and I finally got through………. I was thrilled ! ……Must have caught him in a good mood cause it didn't end well last time we spoke.

    so I said……….so Jesus…. what do you think?….. Do we need expensive tools ?

    He said…….. .. Well Jake, it depends on what 'need' and 'expensive' really means. If 'need' means something you must have to just stay alive then really we don't need many tools at all, let alone most of the stuff that we'll make with the tools. Speaking for myself, if I 'needed' expensive stuff back when I was on the tools, like you guys apparently 'need' these days, I very much doubt christanity would have even taken off to begin with.

    I said…… what do you mean ? How does 'tool needs' relate with christianity ?

    he said…….. Well, think about the sort of sfuff we had back then. You know what I had to sharpen with ? ….. A bloody rock! …..Some blokes were lucky. They had smooth bricks and fancy roman steel. Not me. All I had was bloody rocks and Davo's crappy steel from down the road. ….. AND we didn't have routers uno, like you blokes have nowadays. I would never have left my trade if we had routers.

    I said …. but routers are noisy and dusty, obnoxious over efficient machines that can kill ! …. why would you want that ?


    He said……Get real banana peal. You sound like Mum. She wanted me to stick with it too, but I soon realised I had another talent…….. I had one of those deep reassuring voices and good looks that attracted the ladys. And I seemed to be able to say the right thing at the right time…..think about it……. imagine what happens when ontop of all those attributes, you manage to convince women that your the son of god !…… a few weeks of that, and you NEVER look back mate. trust me. Bugger woodwork.

    I said….. you mean, christianity took off, because, it got you more feminine attention ?

    he said……your not the sharpest tool in the shed are ya Jake !…….. yes, absolutely ! That , and the fact that woodwork was getting painful. Just got tied of getting a sharp edge only to find, it was blunt after only a couple of passes. Spend half your day sharpening. uno ?

    I said…… spose, but maybe if you'd stuck with it, then no christianity would have been a good thing. Uno, no crusades !

    He said……. LOOK ! …… I'm not responsible for the crusades !

    I said……. But aren't you a all knowing wise soul that knows best. Shorely, it be one of the easier things to foresee.

    He said….. Could you foresee that happening ? come on.

    I said……. no, but then I'm not the son of god. But couldn't you even at least, latter on, centuries down the track, being such a powerful entity do a little mind control from the clouds to encourage the crusaders, to instead butchering countless thousands of innocent women and children, to maybe…..uno getting them to take up something more peaceful. Like knitting or say…..oragami ?

    he said……. LOOK ! …. I JUST WANTED THE LADYS…ok….WAS TIRED OF WOODWORK BECAUSE OF MY CRAPPY TOOLS……AND I DIDN'T WANT TO WORK…who wants to work if they don't have to……is that too much to ask….. I DIDN'T CAUSE THE CRUSADES. its not my fault. JUST ….JUST……RACK OFF !

    I said……. fair enough. I thought, jez that bloke can carry on.


    Oh, you had one of those "talks" with him too....

  16. #120
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    800

    Default

    Judging by the length and passion of the posts, people need to talk about their tools more than they need expensive or cheap ones.

    "Now, tell me, how do the tools make you feel."



    Loving the stories
    ...I'll just make the other bits smaller.

Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 3456789 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Are new tools expensive?
    By chook in forum HAND TOOLS - UNPOWERED
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 16th December 2013, 03:41 PM
  2. Why are tools so darned expensive in Oz?
    By US-Oz in forum HAND TOOLS - POWERED
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 21st May 2007, 02:31 PM
  3. Very expensive tools
    By zenwood in forum HAND TOOLS - UNPOWERED
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 24th February 2006, 01:55 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •