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Thread: Saw File a dud, need advice
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16th August 2018, 02:45 PM #136
Stewie
That does indeed look like Bahco "Portugal" as opposed to "Bahco "Switzerland." Tome Feteira are a Portuguese company that have made files for a very long time and the coincidence is a little too much to ignore or dismiss without further investigation. Tome Feteira may well be a separate company, but they could also make files for Bahco under contract. Isuzu made cars for Holden and Mazda made cars for Ford in the same way.
The corners, however, look like they have been in an accident .
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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16th August 2018, 03:27 PM #137
You know what? "Bahco Portugal" actually means dick. Just the same as Grobet USA and Grobet Suisse both mean dick. I think by now we all know that both versions of Grobet are actually made in India. The Suisse version are sent from Switzerland to any retailer dopey enough to still stock them. I know this because Lee Valley did some forensic investigations on that when I brought the deception to their attention. As I understand it - and I don't know for certain - the country that does the greatest value add process can be declared as the country that can be stamped on it, but not the "Made in Country". So in the case of Grobet Suisse it is not too hard to see that packaging them in Suisse would be a more expensive operation the the actual crud file production in India.
Dunno what Grobet USA does, don't care.
My point is that Bahco may well be made in Portugal, but that hideous "black ink stamp of death" only proves that some part of the process happens in Portugal (such as packaging) or perhaps that the company is registered in Portugal. If they are made in Portugal then they could probably do themselves a service by changing the black ink to "Made in Portugal".
As for your Tome Feteira files - good luck, maybe you have some of the good ones that we've heard about being sold in the States (by whom?). The one I sent to Ian was stamped (not printed) "Austria" and apparently wouldn't file the lumps off a sun ripened dog scat. That was the one that was sourced from Sydney, and goes by the local brand Toledo (on the packaging only). It could also be a case of sending the crap QC files to the colonies - certainly the guy running Toledo here knows absolutely jack about files.
Perhaps Paul you could post a pic of the TF labelling (the file itself) please? I think Ian would be keen to give another one a go if it appears to be different to that "Austria" shocker. Apparently TF merged with some Austrian mob a while ago.
Does TF make the file for Bahco? Well if they did, you'd have to think they would be the same file with different black ink. Why would they do two different production runs, using two different sets of tooling, steel, etc etc. Just doesn't make sense. So, if the two files (same spec) look the same then it may well be that they come out of the same factory. If they look different, then probably two factories.
OTOH, there are only something like 6 file factories left in Europe, and it would seem pretty strange for two of them to be in a small country like Portugal. Not impossible of course.
Switzerland - Glardon
France - Liogier
Italy - Corradi (but their files perform like Indians)
Germany - Stahl Willie (but only Machinists files, and a very small range at that)
Portugal - Tome Feteira, and Bahco
There was another Italian brand, and I did get some samples but they were rubbish. They claimed to be Italian made (but were printed black ink), but then so does Corradi.....
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16th August 2018, 06:06 PM #138
The chipped corners on Stewie's Bahco files are pretty similar to what I got from the first lot I tried - we may well have gotten files from the same over-cooked batch. However, since then, I've used several of their files from a couple more lots & they were heaps better. As for any experiment, you need to run it a few times to see if you always get the same result before you rush to publish. But we shouldn't have to hold a lottery every tine we buy a new batch of files! Oh for consistency!
Paul, I sure hope the batch of TFs you have are better than the ones I just tried. If they are the same, the only good news I can give you is that you'll use them up so quickly, they'll soon cease to bother you.....
Cheers,IW
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16th August 2018, 06:15 PM #139Deceased
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16th August 2018, 10:32 PM #140
OK, by popular request, a few pix. I included the box for identification of what they were. The first file however is a 3" DEST for which I did not have the correct box. The 4" DEST (second pic) has no markings at all. The rest are as identified on the boxes. Pictures can be enlarged further by clicking, but I thought it might test the enthusiasm beyond the realms of reason to have huge pix of file names :
P1040107 (Medium).JPGP1040099 (Medium).JPGP1040100 (Medium).JPGP1040101 (Medium).JPGP1040102 (Medium).JPGP1040103 (Medium).JPG P1040105 (Medium).JPGP1040106 (Medium).JPG
I hope the quality and consistency of the files is better than the stamps . Some just say "Portugal."
Ian, if they are no good it will still take me a while to get through them as there are more than a few there!
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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16th August 2018, 11:27 PM #141GOLD MEMBER
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That doesn't really tell us much. there aren't really many significant family/privately owned businesses of that size in the states. The company is either public or it's owned by private capital. Private capital does give companies a little more relief to improve, but it can go both ways. They can either get their products ironed out or they can go cheap and bake their books for a few years to be flipped. I don't know that much about bain, but some of the other capital companies here do both. The same as you'd hold both types of stocks (growth or income type stocks).
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16th August 2018, 11:29 PM #142
Well they are certainly a different look to the one Ian used/tried/killed in a nanosecond, so there may well be some hope for them. What do the corners look like on the 3"EE and 4"EE? Good and sharp?
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16th August 2018, 11:31 PM #143GOLD MEMBER
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Hi, Paul - I thought the same as you, that they were probably the same. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some commonality between engineers and project documents, but have heard (and FF mentioned above) that they're separate.
TF was never a popular brand here, but thanks to the magic of global distribution, it's all of the sudden pretty common. i have seen mixed reviews about their files.
The first I really saw much of them was the seller azmica on ebay (michael merlo?) selling them. They started cheap, but because he's pretty good at hucking, it wasn't long before he was selling them by the dozen for $75 in some auctions. Pure auctions, so he wasn't setting that, people were paying it. Since this is the states and only the large bahco files and the xx slim are anywhere close to that price, I thought it was odd, but we have seen vintage second-line files (brazil or something like that?) sell for more than nicholson files were before they went overseas, just because they're not new files and not nicholson.
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16th August 2018, 11:32 PM #144
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16th August 2018, 11:42 PM #145GOLD MEMBER
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Agree on the lottery, that's why price is important. I haven't had a bad bahco file yet, but I certainly wouldn't equate them to early 1900s austrian files that george wilson gave to me (those are works of art - they're also jewlers files, so it may be an unfair comparison, but no files made now come close to their crispness).
The last of the american nicholsons, I have to be honest, I didn't see anything special about them. They were just good. But other than the shape, I couldn't have seen any of them lasting any longer than the bahcos that I have, and one of the early couple-file purchases that I got was some portugal bahcos - long before nicholson went overseas. I figured they'd be junk, and was mad, because I thought I'd bought swiss files. When they lasted at least as well as the nicholsons, I figured maybe I just couldn't judge quality that well, because outsourced production "surely couldn't be that good".
I think mex nicholsons can rise up to that level if they want to. Fender (on the guitar side of things) outsourced a lot of their production to mexico, and other than using minor cheaper materials (like a bone nut vs. a plastic nut - something a user can fix for about $5), the workmanship in mexico has gone from being an obvious import to now you have to look at the peghead on a guitar if you play two side by side to check and see that it says "mexico" on the back of the peghead).
But, price is important. I wouldn't buy any files these days for $80 a box unless they were needle files or really large. If I find that I get a bad box of bahcos at some point, I'll be out $35-$60, but will have saved far more than that on the other boxes I've bought. Now that i'm not cutting teeth, and get a half dozen touch ups out of a file, I don't know that I'll ever have to purchase another box. I'd have to make about 10 houses full of furniture, and that's not going to happen (a rash of sawmaking or refurbishing could always happen in the future).
Anyway, I think the price is fair *here* for the risk with the files. Mex nicholsons are popping up for very low prices (relative) by the box, too, and may go back in that category.
One last quick story - when "Grobet USA" was initially making some decent files (or just selling off old stock), I bought a box. It was OK, but it was cheap, too. The next two boxes I got from a seller in the USA were terrible. The files were all different shapes, many unusable, and I emailed the seller because they also had a bunch of dinged up teeth on the good files - like someone had put them all in a large box an mixed them around, folding over spots on the teeth. The seller told me they keep the files in barrels (maybe they're shipped that way) and then they pick files out to make boxes when they sell them. YUCK! Who wants to have good quality files laid loose in barrels so that they can beat each other up?
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16th August 2018, 11:51 PM #146
Paul, those files are an interesting mix. Most are at least stamped rather than black ink, but as we have learnt from our Austrian TF (Toledo) experience that is no guarantee of good quality.
However, the grinding of the blanks appears to be of Indian Standard (look at the untoothed shoulders). Rubbish grinding more or less makes the single cut files into a double cut for smoothness of finish, but the worst aspect id when a deep groove is near the edge it creates a fracture point for the corners to chip off. Combine that with incorrect tempering resulting in brittle steel, and the manufacturers should start issuing warnings to wear safety eye glasses.
Some readers at least will remember my sig pic for the last 5 years.
This is what I would regard as a well ground blank:
This is rubbish:
and this one shows exactly how crap grinding makes it a double cut - look at the teeth:
I mean, it's not like grinding a blank is that hard to do - just change the grit of the linisher belt (or whatever they use) to something a bit finer.....
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17th August 2018, 12:46 AM #147GOLD MEMBER
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One would think even a trivial level of polish (or even before polish, just reasonable finishing) could be done in a jig and not require any skill. That is cost cutting or lack of attention to the worst degree.
I've actually never had an issue with functionality of saws when the teeth are like that, but it's no good for file life and files finished like that often feel rough from the start.
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17th August 2018, 12:47 AM #148Deceased
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Geez Brett;
http://www.apextoolgroup.com/brands-faceting
FAQs
2. What is the ownership structure of ATG?
ATG is a Limited Liability Corporation wholly owned by one of the world's leading private equity firms, Bain Capital.
https://www.baincapitalpartnershipstrategies.com/
Stewie;
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17th August 2018, 12:47 AM #149GOLD MEMBER
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17th August 2018, 08:32 AM #150
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