Thread: Saw File a dud, need advice

H P fan and China,

if you look on the underside of the Wiltshire boxes they often have the issue date,
some of my boxes go back to the early 70's.

Graham.

Originally Posted by Huon pine fan

These ones definitely don't have a barcode on themAttachment 439060

Wow, had to laugh when I saw that, twice mate, once when I saw the label on the box and then when I saw you snuck in the edge of a tin of Alfie Shine to the left

Graham, I will raise you on that, Nov 1966 on mine

Sorry to disappoint you Bob but the can was Gilly Stephenson product, not Alfie )

Originally Posted by Huon pine fan

Graham, I will raise you on that, Nov 1966 on mine

1966 - The year I was first learning woodwork at Moe Technical school in Gippsland - oh the memories - my all time favourite subject at school!!!!

Originally Posted by Robson Valley

I don't think it's fair to suppose that a file will outlast the user. Just a slightly harder than usual piece of steel.
I buy Swiss-made "Oregon" chainsaw files in several sizes. Boxes of a dozen. They are disposable.

I revise farrier's knives for wood carving.
I chalk the files and I do not get 2 farrier's knives roughed out before I've ruined a CS 7/32" file.
That's as good as it gets. I'm disappointed but the resulting wood carving tools are worth it.

What ever you do, don't buy files one at a time in the local hardware store.
Those are 3X what I pay in a business that caters to serious forestry.

I think hardware stores long ago gave up selling anything inexpensive that doesn't turn over every three seconds. If you're buying small ancillary stuff like lightbulbs or small bottles of glue (or files), you're "gonna get it".

Better check the dust layer thickness and date on anything that expires, too.

Yessir on the chainsaw files.

A minor update to the status of saw files (at least what I have been able to learn). I very much doubt that anything has changed from back then, or at least in a good sense

• Tome Fetiera (Portuguese supposedly, but punched "Austria") 3 different files were as useful as a wax replica - these were what Ian used a day or two ago. Mind you, those files were sourced here and come in a "Toledo" box, but is was TF in Portugal themselves that steered me to this supplier, and TF did merge with an Austrian company a while back, so they would seem to be genuine TF, or what passes for them.
• The Japanese files - if only there wasn't a language and sourcing problem......many problems would be solved.
• Liogier - if we can get them to send 4" and 5" Extra slim tapers, instead of ST, then out fortunes may change. When they send the correct size they are pretty good. Ian has just tested a 5" EST that I dug up, and it performed well (didn't it?)
• Bahco - haven't improved their marketing/availability here, by all accounts
• Pferd - Indian or similar manufacture, very hit & miss. One of them won its class in the testing, the others were rubbish. Take your chances, but likely to be double the actual cost you paid due to throwaways.
• Vallorbe - now called Glardon, needle files are still good, but a couple of duds have been seen. I don't believe that Vallorbe ever made American pattern saw files, not in recent times, and certainly not now (I did get one from NZ marked Vallorbe but it wasn't)
• Corradi - may be the last great hope for Taper files, but yet to be tested by Ian. Their needles files are excellent according to Rob, and Ian also has a couple of those to test.
• Files from Kevin Drake - again patchy. Miserable failure in the testing report, but someone else said they were great, and Kevin says "hard to imagine a better file". Apparently Japanese made (parallel body)

As far as anything that says "Suisse" - it may have been dispached from Switzerland, but the only Swiss made files that can be used on Saws are the Vallorbe/Glardon needle files. If it says "Made in Suisse" then you should be able to rely on that, unless it's a knock-off....

That is to say that Grobet Suisse are not made in Suisse. There is only one file factory in Suisse - Glardon. They do not make American pattern taper Saw files.

If the file is printed in black ink on the face at the shoulder then the chance of it being Indian are very high - almost 100%. Bahco is an exception to this (which is a bit dumb of them - makes them look Indian).

Note that NOBODY produces a proper taper now, in the American Pattern sense. Some of them have a completely useless taper over the last 15-20mm at the toe, so you may as well use a parallel body anyway. I think they only put that miserable taper on the end so they can call it a taper file - certainly of no known use to mankind, and probably a hindrance.



Going back to the information from 5 years ago (!) there are only about 5 decent file makers left in Europe, and it seems Tome Fetiera can no longer be counted amongst them. That leaves Glardon, Liogier, Corradi (or whoever makes them), and Bahco (I assume they are still Portugese made). Hard to imagine two different file factories in Portugal. If anyone knows of another manufacturer anywhere then we would all be pleased to hear about it.

DW may be able to confirm or deny, but AFAIK there are no files worth a damn made in the USA, and Mexican made are patchy. DW says Mex Nichs are "ok" but not as good as Bahco and that the Bahcos he can get there are very good, and other people have said Bahco are crap, so I think it might be luck of the draw. It may also be that the USA gets the Bahcos that have good QC and the rejects go to other places. Who knows eh?

That leaves Japanese made, which are excellent - probably the best available in the ppi size down from needle files - but seem to be virtually unobtainium, Indian & Chinese which are "regrettably too bloody easily obtainium".

I'd be curious to find out who has had a lot of bahcos and thinks they're crap. they're (aside from the thick corners) as good as anything I've ever used.

A long time ago, I got some swiss grobet (real swiss grobet - 12 or 13 years ago) and I'd managed to get a couple of bahco files from portugal. The bahco files then held up better, but I figured that I must've imagined something, or maybe had my grobets taken out by a bad saw. I think they were just longer lasting.

Of course, the best vintage files (i've got some austrian files from the 1920s - not taper saw files, but needle files) were extremely crisply made, like someone was taking pride in them. The bahcos look more automated, but they've all been consistent for me, and they're (thanks to drop shippers) getting really cheap here. It's a shame they aren't available for the same price there - but my lens is that of someone who sharpens 8/9/12 point crosscut saws and 6-3.5 point rip saws, so someone who sharpens a lot of dovetail saws as a service isn't going to have the favorable view that I have.

At any rate, because I use the big saws a lot and touch them up often, that consistency is what I'm looking for. the internet rumor of "joint, file, joint again lightly, file, reset" isn't reality for someone using hand tools often. It's more like get your saw set up, touch up the teeth 5 times in a couple of minutes, reset, and joint again only if the saw gets out of shape. But files with bad consistency on the corners mess that up.

re: the nicholsons. the 6 slim is $4 here. You can get by with it if it's all you have. The problem that I have with them is rewarding nicholson for sending production overseas and making us go through a crap shoot until they get clean blanks and quality control figured out. And, if a bahco file is $6, and a nicholson $4, the bahco will still be cheaper. If the bahco runs into something untoward, like an unevenly hardened plate or a couple of hard teeth in a really old saw, it can still keep limping along. The mexican nicholsons will be much worse off. And you get a touch up a corner with them, whereas you might get two with a bacho, or three or four, depending on the saw.

re: all of the other brands that some of the saw gurus resell here, like TF. When someone sells them on ebay for $70 box when bahcos are $40-$60 new from snap on, I don't get why anyone would chance it. I still buy my 4/5" xx slims a couple at a time until I either run across an old box (unlikely) or someone sells them reasonably here.

As much as it's a shame that you don't get the same bahco deal we get here, if someone imported them there, they'd double or triple the price, anyway, so there's probably not much use. It's a shame that it sounds like taxes are adding a big burden to anything shipped there, as the shipping cost from here to there is already horrible enough.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

.........[*]Liogier - if we can get them to send 4" and 5" Extra slim tapers, instead of ST, then out fortunes may change. When they send the correct size they are pretty good. Ian has just tested a 5" EST that I dug up, and it performed well (didn't it?)........

Yes, it performed every bit as well as a Nicholson or Wiltshire from the 'good 'ol days'.

Using poor files to sharpen saws is not just a nuisance, it makes it really hard to do a decent job even if you are an experienced saw-sharpener, & nigh on impossible for a beginner. Getting a consistent tooth size & shape depends heavily on the files cutting the same amount of metal away, stroke after stroke, for many teeth. If the file is soft like the TFs referred to, the cuts remove less and less metal and the gullets you are trying to form quickly become shallower & shallower - switch to a new corner and the gullets deepen for a few teeth, then peter out again. You end up with a set of what I call "cows & calves" unless you concentrate to a mind-numbing degree on the flats and make constant corrections as you go! Many files are too soft like the ones described, but perhaps even more of the files I get are too hard and brittle. With brittle files, the teeth on the corners break off & make it catchy, which does nothing for your filing rhythm, or temper - mine, not the saw's

I did indeed render THREE of the files Brett mentioned totally hors de combat reforming a set of 9pt teeth on a 14" saw. To give you an idea of the extent of the job, about 1/2 the teeth had to be completely recut due to the biggest "reverse breasting" I've ever seen on a backsaw. A biggish job, but one I would expect a single file to handle. I chose to start with the TF files because Brett was interested in how they performed. Well, now he knows. Every corner cut ok for about two strokes, after which I could feel the cut dropping off stroke by stroke until the corners were essentially smooth by about 30 or 40 strokes. I persisted out of pure stubborness, switching corners & files after every dozen teeth or so, but only just made it by the last corner of the last file.

By comparison, the Liogier file removed about half as much metal as it took to reform the teeth, adding the fleam and ding the sharpening. I estimate it could have done the job on one corner alone, but I like to switch to a fresh corner for each side on a long-ish saw, to make it easier to keep the teeth even. So it still has an untouched corner, and quite a bit of life in the two I did use. The Liogier wasn't just streets ahead of the other 3, more like the distance from Wilson's promontory to Cape York!

Anyway, thanks for the very good update on the state of play in the file world, Brett. Those who've been trying to get good saw files for years, or following the saga since before the 'great file test' know that nothing has changed much in the last 10 years, except the choices are becoming more & more limited. All we need is for a manufacturer who is capable of making real files, to produce a small range of decent files. It wouldn't need to be a huge number, 4 or 5 sizes could adequately cover the range of tooth sizes for all but a few saws in current use. Being able to buy decent files from a reliable supplier would make a lot of cranky old saw filers a lot happier!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'd be curious to find out who has had a lot of bahcos and thinks they're crap. they're (aside from the thick corners) as good as anything I've ever used.

The "who" is not important, but it was a well respected person from outside the USA. Apart from the fat corners, his main gripe was that the corners disintegrated - literally chipped off. Photographic evidence provided (as I recall).

Originally Posted by D.W.

re: all of the other brands that some of the saw gurus resell here, like TF. When someone sells them on ebay for $70 box when bahcos are $40-$60 new from snap on, I don't get why anyone would chance it.

I think I want to do some more research on the TFs because I can't believe that a saw guru would resell such a POS. They must be better than the 3 Ian had, otherwise the seller's reputation would be badly tarnished. I'd be curious to know if the USA available ones are stamped Austria too. I saw some on Amazon last week and I think they were $36 for 6 files. Need to check and get a link, but a little bust right now.

Ian, if you have a chance could you give the Coraddi taper a bit of a go on something please? Even a useless sized piece of plate, just to assess how they perform because we can get some sent over here pretty soon (may investigate some more TFs too), and perhaps some of the USA supplied Bahcos.

D.W., one of the major gripes with the current lot of files is inconsistency. My gripe with the small sample of Bahcos I've used (couple of dozen, maybe a bit more), is that they tend to be overly brittle. I'd be interested in what others say about the various brands they've tried, too, but unless you sharpen a lot of saws, your sample size is going to be limited, and given the inconsistency mentioned, your experience is as likely to be good/fair as bad/terrible. I think you need to go through a couple of dozen of files from a feww different batches to get a useful perspective. The average serious amateur would probably only need to sharpen a couple of saws a month (too many sharpen/have their saws sharpened far less frequently!). Regular sharpening, as you seem to do, is not only good practice, it is far easier on files - one or two light strokes per tooth should be all that's required. Even moderately good files should hold up well in that situation. I find that I can typically get two or three touch-ups between more serious efforts including re-setting, with my own saws. Jointing is rarely required on my own saws, maybe a light once-over every now & then to make sure the teeth are even. Even the not-so-good files I whinge about can handle that sort of job tolerably well.

Sharpening a badly-maintained or damaged saw that needs a degree of tooth re-forming is a different level that requires decent files, to make the job go smoothly & offer a reasonable chance of ending up with a 'proper' set of fangs.

And cutting a set of teeth from scratch is another level again. This is where a good file can make a huge difference. Even with a 'decent' file, I expect to use up the best part of it cutting a full set of 12 tpi teeth for a 10 or 12 inch saw, for e.g. I can see how a tooth cutter would be a big advantage, but I'm in that unhappy position of not making enough saws to justify the expense of a machine (besides which, I've been trying to quit the habit for years!). How much I get out of a particular file does vary a bit with plate batch and gauge, sometimes I can get two saws' worth out of a single file, but a file per saw is a good rule of thumb for costing purposes. Using three files to form half the teeth on the saw I mentioned above is NOT satisfactory, to me!

Darn it, you guys, I came up for coffee & made the mistake of looking at the 'puter!

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

......I think I want to do some more research on the TFs because I can't believe that a saw guru would resell such a POS. They must be better than the 3 Ian had, otherwise the seller's reputation would be badly tarnished. I'd be curious to know if the USA available ones are stamped Austria too. I saw some on Amazon last week and I think they were $36 for 6 files. Need to check and get a link, but a little bust right now.....

Agreed! These files were as poor as anything I've ever come across,including some very, very cheap files of unknown parentage (too ashamed to put their name on them??) that have occasionally come into my possession (very briefly!). No-one could possibly recommend such garbage to anyone, so there's something amiss....

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

...... Ian, if you have a chance could you give the Coraddi taper a bit of a go on something please? Even a useless sized piece of plate, just to assess how they perform because we can get some sent over here pretty soon (may investigate some more TFs too), and perhaps some of the USA supplied Bahcos.

Yeah, ok, as it happens, and not strictly according to my own plans, I have a batch of new saws to make (as you know! ) So I'll choose an appropriate blank and give one the acid test. A single file won't settle the consistency issue, but a good result will tell us that at least they are capable of making a good file..

OK, I'm heading back to the shed, now!
Cheers,

Has anyone tried these Japanese Files?
TSUBOSAN
http://tsubosan.co.jp/pdf/info/engin...triangular.pdf

I know of this brand. They are the ones that said something about "the concave bosom is satisfying" or something (hard to imagine it being true though....). They made an appearance in the Saw Files 101 thread (that has since lost most of its pictures ).

IIRC they were not slim enough, but they may be a very well made file.

Wait...they ARE slim enough....check out the face width of the 4" XX:
Capture.jpg

May need to see if I can get through to them again. (they ignored me last time, probably because of language).

I'm not sure, but I have a suspicion that the parallel files that Ian (now) has may be Tsubosan. Pretty sure they are also the Atoma Diamond Plate people.