Thread: Saw File a dud, need advice

Originally Posted by fletty

Attachment 440176 Attachment 440177

Busted.

Having sulked for a few days after Fletty and FenceFurniture's scurrilous and potentially libelous remarks I am feeling better now and did come across this old advertisement for Simonds saw files. Interestingly, it is promoting "blunt," "special handsaw files."

Simonds handsaw files 1924.jpg

Regards
Paul

Oooops! I had meant to say that advertisement was from 1924!



Regards
Paul

I have been following the saw file discussion on another forum (interesting) as it always comes up to someone as "what can I buy to file a saw".

I pity the beginner who reads any of the saw file information, though they definitely won't buy a box of grobet USA and be surprised to find that some of those have a knife edge with no teeth, some are warped, and some are hourglass shaped. Hopefully, they won't buy grobet usa at all.

However, it's heartening to find that several other folks have used the more recent nicholson files, as I have, and found them fine. At least some of them. I have to admit that a couple of the xx slim files that I've used in the last two or three years (after the initial horrible quality for the first year or two), I wouldn't have noticed them to be any different than a vintage nicholson file. Maybe under a loupe, I don't know, but they sharpened a tooth line without trading to a new edge and that was that.

I also saw now (and this is where we go with forums and seeing one picture and determining all are bad), that there is one person who broke the teeth on the edge of a bahco file (not sure if it was the individual or the file that was at fault) and the conclusion from some is "these are the same as the nicholsons - pure junk". An interesting twist back to FF's study finds what those of us who have filed (without bias) for a while have found, the bahco scores at or near the highest of any of the new files.

I perused that study again, and some of more recent mex nicholson files have better characteristics visually than some in that study. I still would not buy them overseas, the virtue here in the states is that they're cheap.

The other thing I learned from Pete Taran (who is now selling nicholson files again, and who uses them in a machine filer to file as much as 1/8th inch per pass of the filer) is that all of the gurus here in the US seem to be using machine filers on some or all of their saws. That was a complete surprise. I have nothing against Pete, but I will buy my nicholsons from elsewhere in the states because they're just available cheap here with very little looking.

The discussion goes the familiar (and very important to me) direction of making a distinction between cutting teeth and filing dull saws (with otherwise good teeth). As I've found, the nicholsons and bahcos are both suitable for filing old teeth. I have been avoiding filing new teeth for quite some time (got that out of my system filing new teeth into a few long saws, the worst of which used up to three good vintage files - that being cutting two 4 foot long frame saw blades at just over two teeth per inch).

Pete described using a foley filer basically to force a fresh set of teeth and good geometry into a saw - one pass, up to 1/8th inch of cut and the file is toast on one side after that pass (broken teeth, completely destroyed, regardless of brand or vintage).

I'm not registered on this other forum, but this is something I'd like to see in a video.

it's a shame that all of this discussion about files has given newbies the impression that they cannot just go out and buy a file and try it.

When I was a kid, our local hardware store would sharpen saws if you would pay them to. It was something like $4 for sharpening and setting, but here in the US, until the big box stores took over, there were a lot of local stores offering bad prices on goods at retail and then charging nearly nothing for services. Uncle bert or whatever would toil away in the basement of the hardware store sharpening saws and doing minor machinist work for loyal customers, only to have his time never really recovered because he was working before the era of the bean counter getting involved in mom and pop businesses all the way down to bathroom time per employee.

(it occurred to me blowing through all of those files cutting teeth that if I were going to do any significant sawmaking - which I never did, because planemaking appealed to me to a much greater degree - that I'd make a tooth puncher ala harry strasil. Harry made a husky one-tooth-at-a-time puncher out of plate steel with an eccentric pivot to really build the leverage). Foley filers are often for sale here on local internet classifieds, but having one is more an issue of whether or not it's worth fixing it and then storing it - the latter answer is always no).

Some good points, D.W., and I agree that the lengthy discussions on the merits of brands x, y, & z have probably both confused & discouraged would-be saw-sharpeners, which is not a good outcome. However, I reckon it would be even more discouraging for a newbie if they'd made their first attempt at sharpening a saw with the file I tried a couple of days ago. This was a brand-new 5" (name withheld to protect myself from a lawsuit), which looked the goods, it had regular, clean, teeth & good corners. I set up a new 10 inch blank plate with my usual 12tpi template, and began marking out, one stroke per gullet. I could feel the file losing enthusiasm at about the third stroke, & after about 25 strokes, it was just skating over the surface & barely leaving a mark! The reason for that was the corner was now dead smooth - barely a hint of tooth remained. This was repeated on all 3 corners, so I didn't even make it to the end of the tooth line. I picked up a partly-used (old) Nicholson to finish the marking, removed the template, popped the same file in my file-guide & finished cutting-in all the teeth with it. I then set them, & sharpened the saw ready to go with the same Nicholson. I'd estimate that file would do the same amount of work again easily (one corner is still untouched). The file I started with wasn't just 'not good' it was simply unfit for purpose - I very much doubt I could've done even a very light touch-up on a saw with it.

I'll stick my neck out and say that the best of the bad lot of (new) files that I've used over the last 5 or 6 years have been Bahco & Pferd. I used a new Bahco a week or two back that was as good as any file I've used, but I have to add that both brands have been variable batch to batch, & I've had files from both brands that shed teeth like a broken-down old ewe (forming teeth, so yes, they were getting a severe testing), but even the poorest ones would do for sharpening & light to moderate re-forming.

I did use a very good file a week or two back - a Liogier, but a couple of caveats - I'd like to use a few more from different batches before I gave them an unreserved thumbs-up, and they aren't readily available at your local hardware store. There might be more to say about those in the future.

Cost is not the main concern for me, provided it isn't ludicrous & the file is up to scratch. A good file should sharpen 4 or 5 typical backsaws, so even at $12-15 a file, that's just a few dollars per saw. My main gripes are inconsistency and availability - for some reason neither of the brands I mention have retail outlets in the city where I live, & I have to go to some lengths to get hold of a box of files. The file situation over your way would seem to be very different from ours - you have wider choices at seemingly far better prices, even allowing for the exchange rates. If you can buy $4 files that will do a typical sharpen (i.e., no major re-forming needed) on a 10 or 12 inch saw, you are comfortably ahead of the game - 'arf yer luck.....

Cheers,

I should point out that Mex Nicholsons weren't included in that report because at that time we had already heard from people in the USA that they weren't worth a pinch of poop, and probably just as soft. That, plus the significant extra effort of obtaining some, made it deemed to be a waste of time.

It would seem that the Mex Nichs have improved somewhat (I have also been following the SMC discussion), but the brand has suffered from the trashing it was given in the first couple of years of Mex production. When did they go to Mexico? 2010? And since when have they been "acceptable"?

Unlike Saw Mill Creek, we are able to link to external sites here, and we can even mention them by name! The discussion is here:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....6948-Saw-files

You're right - at the time you did your study, it's possible that someone might have gotten a decent mex nicholson, but really unlikely. Those came out when I was still cutting teeth. Some did OK in a soft saw, but most were made from rough blanks, dulled relatively quickly and if they were introduced to any challenge (cutting teeth in a new 1095 plate or a harder old saw), the first edge tooth sticking up after the relief tooth gave up right away all the way down the file, and they only got rougher quickly.

The recent individual files I've gotten have been OK, but they wouldn't have outdone bahco in your test. Found cheap on the ground, they're fine for resharpening most of the time (now), but I'll never buy a box of them again (for fear that the entire box will be trash).

If I was living overseas, I'd still be wary - you never know what era of file you'll get if you order. If you get files that have been in stock for half a decade, there's very little chance they'd be any good, even if found at $20. They could probably file brass or mild steel (e.g., OK to modify for tool making), but anything heavy in saw filing or with the remotest of contrary saws and they're trash.

Cooper did that to themselves, but I'm sure in the long run, they'll still make more money having moved production to mexico - even though they lost a lot of that business. I doubt files make up much of their portfolio, and expect that more of the triangular files are purchased for other work than they are saw files. Some of our box stores don't even carry files as good as *them* now, having replaced them with chinese-made house brand files. The local Lowes here comes to mind. The chinese files probably cost them a quarter, they sell them for the same price and probably make more money if they sell two for every ten nicholsons.

Originally Posted by IanW

Some good points, D.W., and I agree that the lengthy discussions on the merits of brands x, y, & z have probably both confused & discouraged would-be saw-sharpeners, which is not a good outcome. However, I reckon it would be even more discouraging for a newbie if they'd made their first attempt at sharpening a saw with the file I tried a couple of days ago. This was a brand-new 5" (name withheld to protect myself from a lawsuit), which looked the goods, it had regular, clean, teeth & good corners. I set up a new 10 inch blank plate with my usual 12tpi template, and began marking out, one stroke per gullet. I could feel the file losing enthusiasm at about the third stroke, & after about 25 strokes, it was just skating over the surface & barely leaving a mark! The reason for that was the corner was now dead smooth - barely a hint of tooth remained. This was repeated on all 3 corners, so I didn't even make it to the end of the tooth line. I picked up a partly-used (old) Nicholson to finish the marking, removed the template, popped the same file in my file-guide & finished cutting-in all the teeth with it. I then set them, & sharpened the saw ready to go with the same Nicholson. I'd estimate that file would do the same amount of work again easily (one corner is still untouched). The file I started with wasn't just 'not good' it was simply unfit for purpose - I very much doubt I could've done even a very light touch-up on a saw with it.

I'll stick my neck out and say that the best of the bad lot of (new) files that I've used over the last 5 or 6 years have been Bahco & Pferd. I used a new Bahco a week or two back that was as good as any file I've used, but I have to add that both brands have been variable batch to batch, & I've had files from both brands that shed teeth like a broken-down old ewe (forming teeth, so yes, they were getting a severe testing), but even the poorest ones would do for sharpening & light to moderate re-forming.

I did use a very good file a week or two back - a Liogier, but a couple of caveats - I'd like to use a few more from different batches before I gave them an unreserved thumbs-up, and they aren't readily available at your local hardware store. There might be more to say about those in the future.

Cost is not the main concern for me, provided it isn't ludicrous & the file is up to scratch. A good file should sharpen 4 or 5 typical backsaws, so even at $12-15 a file, that's just a few dollars per saw. My main gripes are inconsistency and availability - for some reason neither of the brands I mention have retail outlets in the city where I live, & I have to go to some lengths to get hold of a box of files. The file situation over your way would seem to be very different from ours - you have wider choices at seemingly far better prices, even allowing for the exchange rates. If you can buy $4 files that will do a typical sharpen (i.e., no major re-forming needed) on a 10 or 12 inch saw, you are comfortably ahead of the game - 'arf yer luck.....

Cheers,

Your last sentence summarizes what the weather conditions seem to be here these days. if you can find more recent mex nicholsons, you can easily touch up and even do minor adjustments with one edge. I hope my tooth cutting days are over, but if they're not, I guess I'll use bahcos. We pay almost the same thing you do for a good vintage box of nicholsons, and in light work, there's no economy in it.

In the two frame saw blades that I made, I burned through six heavy taper 8 inch nicholson vintage files. Kind of makes me a little bit sick to have wasted them (steel was new .042 1095), and I used a sharp edged triangular chinese double cut file (that is ungodly hard, but slow cutting) to start all of the teeth so as to save the corners (on a file that large with that few of teeth - 8 inch heavy taper, you can't really start a gullet accurately, anyway, and have to start with something else).

Somewhere in this country are probably still boxes of NOS nicholsons and other makes, but they'll be found by professional pickers and sold on ebay for $8-$10 a file, and i'm out at that price.

I wish liogier good luck in getting files made in volume and consistently, but I think it's a bar too high for anyone these days because the people and the process history just aren't there. I believe any of them (bahco, et al, grobet if they wanted to) could make some really superb examples. For someone to lay down a production run for 10 years and make 99% good batches, though....I just don't believe that'll ever happen again. Too many accountants involved, and it's probably cheaper to service subpar tools than it is to make good ones. The data point that the manufacturers never account for (the known unknown in my world, at least that's how we'd identify this) is the user who buys something, doesn't complain but isn't pleased with it, and moves on to the next brand. There ought to be a button to click on a manufacturer's website where you can enter the SKU and purchase date and say "just to let you know, it wasn't bad enough for me to hassle with a return, but it was bad enough that I won't buy from you the next time").

My last comment from above (other than being shocked at two things - that a foley filer can take an eighth off in a single file pass, and that most of the manufacturing and initial tooth shaping is being done by machines at makers that all of us thought were hand resharpening) is the one for people in the states to remember, though. If mex nicholsons might be OK, buy one, use it. You'll be out $4-$5 if it doesn't work, you may find a use for it elsewhere, and if not, I've made some nice little marking knives hammering out used files. To read the internet, then assume that the local nicholson will be unusable without trying, and go do something like buy a $75 box of tome feteira and chance the entire box being junk, not good.

.....and...my biggest bugaboo now that I'm doing mostly resharpening. If a file is a little bit soft, I can tough it out. If I open a box, and the edge thickness is variable within the box or between boxes for the same size file, same manufacturer, that really makes me mad. A true hand tool woodworker will be touching saws up lightly and often. If you sharpen a saw with a fat edge file and then must sharpen the next one with a sharp edged file, it's a real headache. One that's a few extra minutes at most, but you can't do that "thought free" touchup where you pretend to be a machine - the file rocks on the bottom of the gullet and you have to pay attention until you cut through it.

I hate that.

Originally Posted by D.W.

Cooper did that to themselves, ..... I doubt files make up much of their portfolio,

Probably not, but clearly enough are produced to make the move to Mexico more profitable, otherwise you'd have to think they would just drop files altogether if it was such a small part of the business. I very much doubt that the suits who run Cooper Tools have any idea on how to spell sentimentality or tradition.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I wish liogier good luck in getting files made in volume and consistently, but I think it's a bar too high for anyone these days because the people and the process history just aren't there.

To be clear, Liogier aren't doing anything different with their file production to what they have ever done. There have been no changes to any facet of their production or marketing. In fact they don't market their files AT ALL - it was a year or two before I discovered they also did files, and that was kinda by accident.

I am yet to prove my case about their consistency, but I am quite certain that it is going to come down to the "Picking Guy" can't tell the difference between a 4" EST and a 4" ST. Either can't tell....or thinks we won't be able to....

I cannot for the life of me understand why a 4" ST even exists. The corners are about the same as a 6" EST but without the length of stroke available. That was the only reason they scored poorly in the testing - the were initially assessed as EST when they were not, and were essentially out of their depth with the test required of them. Most of the other Liogiers were at least on par with Bahco, IIRC. So if the ST had in fact been an EST then Liogier would have been the top scoring brand. Self-sabotaged.

I have a question regarding Bahco files. I was told recently that they are made by the Portuguese manufacturer Tome Feteira.

Now I don't know if that is true and I am seeking information not being mischievous. In fact I have a significant quantity of Tome Feteira files in quite a range of sizes and tapers. I will have an opportunity (think more like task ) to try these out in the near future as I am putting together a collection of saws for my own use. Four out of seven saws have to be re-toothed or toothed from scratch and all need to be sharpened so I am anticipating quite a workout (for the files too). I will report on these in a separate thread in due course as I don't wish to hijack this thread.

Regards
Paul

I agree completely about your comments on the 4" ST file. The only virtue to them is that they're often cheap, but if they're a similar price to a 5 xx slim, the latter is (often far) finer and doesn't have the obnoxiously short stroke.

In terms of cooper in the states, their files are in home depot. They were probably in lowes (I can't remember, it's been so long since lowes put their goofy kobalt brand files on their racks), but they're in every home depot and were in pretty much every hardware store chain (where their turnover was very low, but the market reach was very wide).

I doubt they make a lot on those files, but enough to ship the equipment to mexico and see if they could figure it out. they never communicated with me at all, not even when I went through their proper channels using customer service (and I was a legitimate customer!). It'd be really interesting to find out what the typical customer for their files really is - if it's machinists, or trade guys who put one in their toolbox for oddball jobs. I find it difficult to believe people were sharpening saws with them, in general - at least covering the very wide distribution area that HD has (of course some were, but there's no way HD would sustain their stock on having a pile of people sharpening saws in every town. Where I live, there are three home depots less than 8 miles away, two less than 5. Their stock turns over fast enough that the US made files didn't last long once production moved. some of the bastard files were US made for a while, but not the saw files.

As to their sentimentality? There must be none.

there's a somewhat similar situation with norton. Norton owns the washita mines in the US, they're closed. they tried about a decade ago to sell washita stones, and they sold a few (and I'm sure profitably), but it's such a small part of norton st.gobain that despite the stones costing them nothing (and washita comes out of the ground in huge globs that can just be cut and finished), they said that the fact that they would have to open the mine periodically due to lack of demand for full time operation was too much of a pain (I believe they ship the stock to new england to finish the stones).

It's relatively common that I get in an argument with someone about some aspect of the above scenario. "If they can sell 2x8 stones for $80, then there's no way they wouldn't do it".

From their point of view, it's a retail customer who buys a stone like that, demand is intermittent and managing supply and keeping labor busy all year isn't nearly as easy as it is with commercial abrasives and manufactured stone.

If liogier is to get popular (and they could if they can make consistently good files and get them shipped to the US), they have to compete with distribution that's already in place, and the first time they cause trouble picking the wrong files or especially if they have a supply interruption due to demand, woodworking retailers will just drop them. the reach that nicholson has in all of the little hardware stores (that i'm sure go through wholesalers) wont' be reachable, and that will drive costs up. Bahco doesn't show up on the ground here anywhere, but they have the advantage of being owned by williams/snap on, so despite the fact that their files wouldn't have any reach, their distribution machine has a lot.

Then, on top of that is the finicky internet (e.g., see stewie's post about how bahcos are in the same categories as the original mex nicholsons. he's unaware that some of the more recent nicholsons are fine, but that doesn't stop him from asserting that they aren't). Hundreds of eyes may see a post like that, thousands over time, and how many purchases are affected? If you see the same thing in two places then, certainly, it must be true.

that kind of thing won't affect nicholson much because their average customer is probably buying a single carded file in person. It'd crush someone relying on internet sales.

I secretly blame home depot for cooper heading overseas. they probably would've done it, anyway, but the real history of home depot's expansion is that they long ago saturated the market, so now their growth is going to rely on pushing down the cost of the items they buy. They freely state that in their investor calls. They've destroyed the milwaukee brand at this point, and diluted the dewalt and PC brands (with help from other large retailers). I guess anything on their shelves is destined for that. the chain associations of independent hardware stores (ace, doitbest) generally don't sell much on their shelves, either, often at higher prices, and their house branded stuff is overseas goods.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I have a question regarding Bahco files. I was told recently that they are made by the Portuguese manufacturer Tome Feteira.

Now I don't know if that is true and I am seeking information not being mischievous. In fact I have a significant quantity of Tome Feteira files in quite a range of sizes and tapers. I will have an opportunity (think more like task ) to try these out in the near future as I am putting together a collection of saws for my own use. Four out of seven saws have to be re-toothed or toothed from scratch and all need to be sharpened so I am anticipating quite a workout (for the files too). I will report on these in a separate thread in due course as I don't wish to hijack this thread.

Regards
Paul

The last I heard, Tome Feteira is a completely different company, and the files are not the same.

Yes, I saw that. If FF's test found bahcos to be good, most other people seem to find them fine and one comes up a dud, they are mex nicholsons? (which themselves appear to be on the mend).

I saw that George mentioned that he'd tried a flat file after being able to file the corner of one of the early mex files off with a good quality double cut file, the more recent make was fine.

I wouldn't buy questionable files by the box. The last I bought 5xx slim mex nicholsons, I did buy 6, but they were $3 each. I understand your resentment for early mex nicholsons, especially if you got into them by the dozens, but files seem to be a moving target and the only really terrible ones I've had have been "grobet usa" taper files (where a box of a dozen may contain ten different shapes) and the early mex nicholsons, where even the bad of those, I could cut teeth with.

I grew weary enough of cutting teeth with files that I'd stopped doing it after a few dozen saws. It just seems like a huge waste of files, and I decided I'd either make a toother or quit (making planes and cabinets sort of squashed filing new teeth into saws, as did the realization that I could buy a $25 disston saw, completely correct the teeth in it and then find a buyer for $50 - a complete waste. I realize you can put volumes of text on ebay and puff up what the saw really is - that is, describe a $50 saw as one that's 4 times that to find a beginner who might pay it, but that's not my kind of thing).

Anyway, my point above is still relevant. Any poor individual in most developed areas who is entitled to take a dull saw of theirs and find the truth that even a relatively poorly done touch up job is better than a saw with shiny rounded bits on the edge - such a person will probably hear they can't get the saws at a home store here (because they're nicholson), and resign themselves to something fancy and expensive online, perhaps in large quantities. When, in fact, they can literally try the nicholson file with no more risk than going to the store twice (the retailer will take it back if it's subpar, even if the user doesn't have a clue - they do that because they make the maker eat the cost of doing that). A $4 venture has become a confusing insistence that anything that can't tooth a saw per edge is unusable. It's a shame.

the same sentiment goes on in sharpening. remember how great king stones were? Now they're no good. I remember that they were "so much better than oilstones", and now they're "not as good" as oilstones, and shaptons are sort of a low entry point, and users must go beyond that.

An actual craftsman 125 years ago would pick up the mex nicholsons as they are now, touch up 6 saws with them and say "eh, not quite as good as they used to be, but i have something to finish". We choose paralysis instead.