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  1. #16
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    I think a thesis could be written on this subject so let's just look at the last 100 years. Industrialisation was in full swing and woodwork was done on the whole for either a job or a necessity because money was tight and food on the table more important than any recreational activity. Indeed the hours worked and the lack of money impeded any thought of having a hobby and I am guessing very few people owned their own homes let alone a shed full of tools.

    Up until then industrial woodworkers did not have wide access to machines and could have been wise enough to see that if the processes they used were mechanised the future would not be too bright but that did not hold back machines and they gradually crept in and took away the hand work and so began the era where handwork skills begun to wane and around the 1950's up until now the woodworker hobbyist began to appear due to the post war financial boom that took place. Machines began to be available on a wide scale and even trades such as carpenters who one the whole at least in this country became assemblers due to the need to produce houses cheaply and quickly.

    Somewhere along the way hobbyists got the idea that hand work had been pushed aside and they were right and a great big push emerged for returning to the good old days of handwork but they weren't good for those who had been there, the good old days had been there because that was all that was. Now we try and replicate the skills of those days through choice not necessity but that short period of time introduced for hobbyist skills using machinery in a period that hand tolls had been all but abandoned so we have the gap that a lot of skill was in fact lost because it was not necessary. I saw my father and grandfather both woodworkers by trade convert to machines with joy because it took the drudgery away of trying to do things with hand tools and gave them a better life style.



    What has this got to do with the topic, maybe nothing but it sort of explains why machines became dominant and the only reason hand skills have re-emerged from nowhere is perhaps sentiment for what is perceived as the golden age of woodworking. Machines now do the same job in a lot of cases at least as good and way faster than hand work and today we live in a world of wanting to do something in a limited amount of time and not enough patience to learn skills that took men five years of an apprenticeship to learn the process so machines win in that scenario.

    Looking at hand tool work today and it is not the same thing as it was. I take one instance and that is the perennial dovetail joint. We see the joint being measured to the enth degree to get a perfectly uniform appearance, layed out with precision instruments, timber dimensions measured with electronic calipers to .01 I (I am just as guilty as anyone) and the dovetails look like they came from a machine when in the old days the tradesman looked at the side of a drawer and placed the needed DT's by eye with in most cases not a thought about how rough the finished fit was as long as it was mechanically strong enough to do the job. Have we subverted the original intention of this mechanical joint, it was never a work of art and the only time a bit of effort was put in for appearances sake was when it was visible and beyond that near enough was good enough.

    That raises the question of using modern technology in hand wood working, is it justified or should we be pure in the craft so many want to learn and use methods closer to what it was? My thoughts are whatever it takes to get the job done but others will differ of course. I apologise if this is seen as off topic but I think the history and what has happened is important along with how we live our life today.
    CHRIS

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  3. #17
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    As others have mentioned, great thought-provoking thread, Lance!

    My introduction to woodworking was much the same as yours too, Lance. Basic 'carpentry' (decks, cubby house, fencing, outdoor bench seats and fixing stuff) using handheld power tools whenever I could. I enjoyed it a lot too. About 9 months ago now, I inherited my grandfather's hand tools and looked up how to restore and sharpen them and came across Paul Sellers. His videos were great for me, easy to follow, and by following them I was able to restore and sharpen the tools to an acceptable standard.

    The first tool I restored was the Stanley No.4 smoothing plane. It was that very moment after I'd sharpened it and planed my very first shaving (first time in my life) that I was instantly hooked. I can't describe it. But it was one of the best feelings I've experienced. I've played guitar for 30+ years and that always gave me an amazing feeling - but it did not compare to this.

    So I began following his stuff and it's led me down the hand tool path.

    For me, making something with only hand tools (not the result) is what 'gets me off'. Again, it's hard to describe, but no matter how hard the work may be - be it preparing rough-sawn timber, getting it down to size, etc. - I get immense satisfaction out of doing it. As I used to have a pretty sedentary lifestyle, I now find that I get more exercise than ever - and that makes me feel good also. Sweat and heart-pumping. Just going out to the shed and taking a few shavings for no reason is bliss to me. Using all of my senses to work the wood is a wonderful experience for me too - listening, feeling, smelling...all of it. Feeling the fibres in the wood react to the tool is amazing to me and I'm getting more of a 'feel' for that as my skills progress.

    It's not that I don't appreciate machines, or the work that can be created with them, (and definitely not anyone who uses them!), for me it's just a personal experience that makes me feel good, good about myself and good about life. I have no idea why, it just does.

    My intersection point doesn't exist in that sense then. I simply don't want to use machines or power tools, no matter how much easier or more accurate they may be, because I'd miss out on that feeling I get if I'd used a hand tool. I enjoy the challenge and the journey of getting it done with my own power. The ultimate will be to make my own tools and use them. One day...

    While the results may not be as good as if I used machines, or it takes me a lot longer - I actually like it, the longer the better. I have never been a gym-junkie or exercise person, but I can now understand how people love this feeling as I get a good dose of it myself. And I get to create something in the process.

    It's not about the 'purist' aspect, nothing to do with being traditional, but simply that I love using hand tools because of the way it makes me feel. If it takes longer, even better! More use of the tool. If it doesn't come out good as I might have been able to get with a machine, that's good too as I get to learn and hopefully improve next time.

    This post is all over the place, I apologise! But it's hard to describe feelings, and that's what hand tools give me.

    So I always look for way to not use power tools, and therefore no intersection, if that makes sense.

    Regards Adam

  4. #18
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    There's an interesting diversion in the "How does a high angle plane reduce tearout" thread about the differing intersection of hand and power tools for different members. This is such an individual choice, that I thought it would be interesting to hear the different philosophies and reasoning as to how we found our own intersection point.
    Lance, and all

    My love affair in building furniture with hand tools began about 25 years ago, however I have been building and using tools since my teens, which is over 50 years ago. Back then the hand tool of choice was sandpaper wrapped around a block of wood, as I shaped fibreglass on surfboard repairs or rebuilt car panels. In my 20s, when I began working wood, my power tools were limited to a circular saw, jig saw, sander and drill until the purchase of the time-honoured entry tablesaw, a Triton about 30 years ago. It was not until about 10 years ago that I acquired a powered jointer (8" Carbatec) and thicknesser (12" Delta lunchbox). Until then the tablesaw, and then a basic Taiwanese 14" bandsaw (which had obvious limitations), did the major work with dimensioning, with handplanes taking the boards to size. In truth, the thicknesser was possibly used a dozen times as it wailed like a banshee in heat, and I feared that the family and neighbours would get together and evict me. So, rough dimensioning on the bandsaw, then jack plane and jointer plane was the go. Working with recycled Jarrah (ex-roofing trusses) made for an adventure and fitness training! It has only been some 8 years ago that the Hammer N4400 bandsaw arrived, then about 5 years ago that the Hammer A3-31 replaced the Carbatec-Delta twins. 18 months ago I replaced my 20 year old Carbatec contractor saw with a Hammer K3 slider. I count myself an awfully lucky and fortunate fellow. These amazing machines do not make me a better woodworker, but they do make the roughing out much more pleasant ... less noise, less dust, and easier set ups. But is is still just roughing out. The "real" woodworking lies with the hand tools.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  5. #19
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    The responses have been a really interesting read.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanW
    For me, it's about enjoying the process, these days, product is important, of course, but there aren't the sametime constraints as I once had. I'm not precious about how I get the job done, I chose the method that will get the result I want, but mostly I use either all, or predominantly hand tools because some tasks are quicker, easier & liable to end up a better job with hand-tools. And I can listen to ABC FM with few interruptions.
    This has been a predominant response. People do it because they enjoy it. To be honest I was a little surprised in that I thought a fair few people held a philosophical position on the use of hand tools, but it appears not to really be the case at all. Your ABC listening also resonated. I can't follow podcasts/stories in the workshop as I have to concentrate too much at times, and miss what was being discussed. The radio can be a challenge with the slew of "I'm funnier than the next person" D.J. so have standardised on ABC Classic FM (thought the Opera Show on Saturday afternoons does test my resolve). It also makes me feel very sophisticated chopping dovetails to Chopin

    Quote Originally Posted by IanW
    I can do things with hand tools quite easily now, that 40 years ago would've been beyond me even if I'd had a shed full of everything Tom Lie-Nielsen makes.
    One common thread for a lot of people was that they started with power tools, and over time progressed more to hand tools. I know for me, that starting with power tools allowed me to do things to a quality beyond what I could achieve with hand tools. Over time though, I'm able to substitute a power tool process for hand tools one area at a time as I choose to pick up a new skill, without diminishing the projects I can tackle. All the while adding to the refinement I am able to put into projects.


    Quote Originally Posted by D.W.
    In the event that the mrs. wanted some case work in duplicates (like four or five cases for the living and dining area that matched, though, I would get the power planer back out, and probably the table saw. I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't want to build those in the first place as there wouldn't be much interesting in them).
    This is an interesting take, in that the project itself can shift our intersection point. It makes a lot of sense, and as I consider it, realise that I do the same too. There are some projects we want to undertake, and others we do as a chore. Funny story in light of this. When we build the workshop, as it's timber framed I was using a framing nail gun all day every day for a week or so. So when it came to install the first pieces of workshop "furniture" (brackets, shelves etc), it just got tacked to the walls with the framing gun. Fast forward eight or so years, and a couple of months ago I bought a new flexible compressor hose, and needed to fasten some timber to the wall to make a hose hanger. I pulled the old hose hanger down (which had been attached with the nail gun), and don't know if that's what put the notion into my head, but without really thinking about it I connected up the nail gun and fastened the new hanger with it, splitting one of the hangers in the process. After standing back I felt like a philistine. There's woodworking in all it's forms, and then there's simple butchery. There were so many more elegant routes which I could have taken, but it was a chore. I'll see how I go though, despite it being perfectly functional it grates me every time I see it, so a new hanger may be in the pipeline. Depending on how much of a chore it feels like at the time will no doubt dictate if it's a quick tablesaw/bandsaw job, or something for which I will take a bit more time.


    Quote Originally Posted by BobL
    Relaxation for me, especially during work day evenings was an hour or two spent in quiet repetitive activity that I could zone out with that involved wood and hand tools.
    I understand that. One of the draws for me to woodworking is that as someone who spends all day working in my head, I find tremendous fulfilment in creating with my hands. I guess that's part of the draw to hand tools, it satisfies an intrinsic enjoyment of being more "connected" with working the wood. I would be interested in the perspective of people who's job requires them to be working with their hands all day, and already feel a sense of "creating" as part of their day job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks
    I saw my father and grandfather both woodworkers by trade convert to machines with joy because it took the drudgery away of trying to do things with hand tools and gave them a better life style.
    I wonder if the perspective of someone who works in a particular field, and a hobbyist is vastly different. One receives a living from the activity, whilst the other offers fulfilment and enjoyment. I know that as a software engineer, my approach to computer systems, technology and software tools is vastly different to that of passionate hobbyists who program in their spare time. On open source projects where professionals and hobbyists code together, it is easy to pick which is which. Not necessarily in the quality of the code, but in what they consider important around the process and tools. In most cases the professionals appreciate the help offered and enjoy the debates with a passing interests. At other times though, we just roll our eyes and laugh. At the end of the day however, it's their hobby, and they're having fun, so if they want to spend days debating which loop structure is more efficient, more power to them. Their needs are different to ours.

    Quote Originally Posted by chambezio
    Being a Carpenter (now retired) what ever I do in the shed is under pressure to "get the thing finished!!!". Why ?.....that little voice in my head is trying to make me perform as if I am still making money out of the item. Silly I know but I just can't change my way of working.
    Boy to I appreciate this! As a self employed consultant, it was only natural that every part of my life needed to operate as efficiently as possible. After a while though I realised that it was stressing me out, so forced myself to find the "enjoyable" path, regardless of efficiency when not at work. It took years of effort, but how find it easy to switch gears between work and play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks
    Looking at hand tool work today and it is not the same thing as it was. I take one instance and that is the perennial dovetail joint. We see the joint being measured to the enth degree to get a perfectly uniform appearance, layed out with precision instruments, timber dimensions measured with electronic calipers to .01 I (I am just as guilty as anyone) and the dovetails look like they came from a machine when in the old days the tradesman looked at the side of a drawer and placed the needed DT's by eye with in most cases not a thought about how rough the finished fit was as long as it was mechanically strong enough to do the job. Have we subverted the original intention of this mechanical joint, it was never a work of art and the only time a bit of effort was put in for appearances sake was when it was visible and beyond that near enough was good enough.
    I suppose it's much like the body builders. We show off because we can. As someone still in the early stages of learning to do dovetails, I know that modern glue makes them redundant, but they look lovely (to me). Paul Sellers offers a funny anecdote about his mentor and a snooty customer who was very demanding and wanted to be seen to be better than everyone else. When she noted something that needed work done, his mentor mentioned that they would normally fix it with dovetails, but if she would prefer, they could punch in a neat couple of brads. Thinking this was the better option, she demanded the brads. Now we may laugh, but perhaps at the end of the day, non woodworkers don't care about dovetails. But as (aspiring) craftsmen, we know the skill involved, and so really do appreciate them. Aesthetics, and what people consider beautiful is constantly evolving, so have no issues with dovetails being re-purposed from mechanical necessity to a detailed feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratman
    It's not about the 'purist' aspect, nothing to do with being traditional, but simply that I love using hand tools because of the way it makes me feel.
    Hear hear! It's the vibe.



    Lance

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xfigio View Post
    Hear hear! It's the vibe.
    Now why couldn't I be that succinct! Very good

    That's it, in a nutshell, for me.

    Regards Adam

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xfigio View Post
    .... As someone still in the early stages of learning to do dovetails, I know that modern glue makes them redundant, but they look lovely (to me). ....
    Hmm, I'll accept the second part, but I couldn't agree with the first part of that statement, Lance. First, it's debatable whether 'modern' glues offer anything in terms of strength that ancient old hide glue doesn't. Properly prepared & applied, hide glue is 'stronger' than wood. But there are other constraints besides the 'glue strength' on the mechanical properties of a glued joint and I would not recommend you use it to join two boards at right angles as for drawer sides, without some form of 'mechanical'help! Using glue of any description in that way is never going to stand the test of time.

    Dovetails evolved as a simple answer to a problem, their potential decorative properties are secondary and the two roles are not mutually exclusive! I think you'd find that any dovetails that would show were always executed rather precisely on higher-end furniture, going way back. Pride of workmanship is not a new phenomenon. They can certainly be a bit rough-looking, with deliberate over-cuts, etc., on more utilitarian pieces, but the fit was usually pretty tight (to begin with, at least). Then as now, you had all levels of skill plying the same trades and an apprentice had to start somewhere.

    My experience has been that people who care (but often have little knowledge) about the construction of their more valued furniture items certainly know what a dovetail is, and equate them with 'high quality', regardless of execution. We woodies tend to look at them not necessarily for their structural necessity, but as a quick measure of the maker's skill level. Both views have their pros & cons.

    But if you are going to produce some heirloom pieces that you hope will last a generation or two, using tried & trusted construction methods, which may include dovetails for utilitarian as well as decorative properties, where necessary, is technically sound, imo...

    The glues you use are optional and of far less importance than good mechanical construction, imo. What 'modern' glues have over hide glues are convenience & rapid cure times. What hot hide glue has over PVA glues is rapid tack & reversibility. It's still my choice for 'heirloom' furniture....

    There are whole threads devoted to glues & glueing, so I apologise for going off-topic, but I wanted to comment on the common, but erroneous belief that modern industrial glues absolve us from bothering with sound construction, whether Mr, Sellers says so or not. Better to believe that all glues are likely to fail eventually, so never rely on them entirely....

    Cheers,
    IW

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    An excellent summation too, Lance! Great stuff.

    Regards Adam

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    Thanks Ian for the clarification. It was a point well taken (as usual).

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    I wanted to comment on the common, but erroneous belief that modern industrial glues absolve us from bothering with sound construction, whether Mr, Sellers says so or not.
    Just to add that Mr Sellers would most definitely not say this

    My apologies, Ian, if I misunderstood your point!

    Regards Adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratman View Post
    Just to add that Mr Sellers would most definitely not say this
    Yes, I wasn't attributing my statement to anyone in particular, rather the "collective wisdom" (or not in this case!).

  12. #26
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    Ah yes, agreed!

    Regards Adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratman View Post
    Just to add that Mr Sellers would most definitely not say this

    My apologies, Ian, if I misunderstood your point!

    Regards Adam
    My apologies, Adam (to you, Lance, & Paul S.). I (mis) interpreted what was written as implying that modern glues obviate the necessity for some kind of mechanical help on drawer sides. Glues & glueing can engender almost as much debate as sharpening, so I over-reacted. If I'd paused & engaged brain for a second, I would've asked for clarification, which is always a good move.....

    Cheers,
    IW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratman View Post
    Just to add that Mr Sellers would most definitely not say this

    My apologies, Ian, if I misunderstood your point!

    Regards Adam
    My apologies, Adam (to you, Lance, & Paul S.). I (mis) interpreted what was written as implying that modern glues obviate the necessity for some kind of mechanical help on drawer sides. Glues & glueing can engender almost as much debate as sharpening, so I over-reacted. If I'd paused & engaged brain for a second, I would've asked for clarification, which is always a good move.....

    Cheers,
    IW

  15. #29
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    >>Perhaps the least defensible (imo) on a logical basis is the perception that hand tools are more 'pure' and virtuous<<

    Sometimes my talk about working entirely by hand is twisted into that, but that's not really it. It's more "feels better" and I do better work. Some people wouldn't. If i had 10 pieces of case work to get done, I wouldn't do them entirely by hand, and I'm sure my first thought would be design compromises to make everything faster and more forgiving to making the parts separately and getting them together (as opposed to working on elements and fitting parts to what's already made).

    It's certainly true that working wood by hand will also develop the fine skills, develop ability to maintain tools, etc, but there's certainly no reason for someone to do it if they like working mostly with machines better.

    I can only think of one person making a living working without power tools, and he's in an area where you can find jobs like repair or carving the ends of church pews (outside of philadelphia) and where there's an organized market for small shop made items due to tradition and the amish. It's not something I'd want to do! Actually, I wouldn't want to make a living making anything out of wood. I see the higher quality work around here (Pittsburgh) that joiners do for fitting things in houses, and it still looks simplistic and dumb to me. Think 4x4 posts with a chamfer stopped and ending in a cove type end, something obviously done in a template, and then painted and put in a house.

    I'm sure there are some wealthier areas uptown where restoration work is done for well-heeled folks (heirs of banking and steel industry fortunes here), but that's not easy work to do, either.

    One thing you have to do if you're going to work entirely by hand is step away from the idea that everything needs to be fast or measured to a certain spec. You will probably, in the end, be just as tidy as machine work if you want to be, but it's like anything else - if you're doing something more laborious by hand, you'd better be doing something nicer to make up for it. There's not a lot of faffing around trying to find things to make that may fit the tools - that's one side benefit, but you don't have to dimension by hand to get to that point. You can run a power planer 5 hours a week and still use a draw knife to rough out a guitar neck.

    When I did my kitchen, I used a router table and machine planed some of the wood when I got tired of doing it by hand. I used a door bit set to make my cabinet doors because I started when I wasn't sure whether I could do that quickly by hand (a modern looking raised panel door).

    I sold my router table and bit set off, and the mrs requested some cabinets on the opposite side of the kitchen where we had a rolling butcher block. So, I have spent the last several weekends making half a dozen raised panel doors haunched M&T with raised panel because I no longer have a door bit set or router table. It's been kind of a pain, because I didn't really want to make the doors in the first place, and i had to make a bouvet style plane to cut the door grooves, and then one of my bubbles was burst. Years ago, I made a skew panel plane, jack plane sized. I found it easier (or just as easy) to make the same style raised panels just with a jack and jointer or jack and coarse set smoother. No wonder there aren't that many raised panel planes around compared to the number of raised panel doors that were made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    ....... No wonder there aren't that many raised panel planes around compared to the number of raised panel doors that were made.....
    You have a point, D.W. The panel-raising planes I've seen more or less restrict you to a fixed angle & set-back for the raising & fielding. Ok for someone doing panel work on house after house, perhps, but of more limited use to a cabinetmaker building different items every week or two. It's the same problem with router bits, you get tired of seeing the same old, same old panel edges everywhere you go. They invariably look out of proportion to me, too, too narrow on large doors & too wide on small panels. Using hand tools gives you the freedom to alter the fielding to suit the door. It's not that big a challenge to raise a panel or two for a piece of furniture with planes alone, I suppose, but when I did our kitchen in an early 1900s house, I confess I knocked most of the waste off on the tablesaw, & cleaned up with hand planes. At the time (late 80s/early 90s) the fashion was for recycled pine kitchens, so I had to do a lot of sorting & selecting and laminating before cutting out any door panels. Kitchens are not my favourite w'working projects, either!

    Actually, our house & fashions have both changed radically - the last kitchen I did would probably be better described as 'plasticworking' than woodworking...

    Cheers,
    IW

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