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  1. #1
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    Default Finding the intersection between power and hand tools in our workshops

    There's an interesting diversion in the "How does a high angle plane reduce tearout" thread about the differing intersection of hand and power tools for different members. This is such an individual choice, that I thought it would be interesting to hear the different philosophies and reasoning as to how we found our own intersection point.

    My story starts a couple of years ago when I started finer woodwork (my previous projects and methods would more appropriately be described as rough carpentry). We had a few power tools (CMS, circular saw, router, drill press), and the projects I undertook were defined by what those tools could do. Naturally we were also restricted to timber dimensions readily available from hardware shops.

    I think the first significant use of hand tools happened when my wife started catching bee swarms and us needing to build bee hives in a hurry. The base of the hive needs to be nice thick timber with a landing platform which is essentially a wide, shallow chamfer of about 7 deg. We had some construction grade Tas Oak beams left over from building our house, and I learned (in a hurry) to use a hand plane to first flatten, joint (to glue a larger panel), then add the chamfer. The realisation that I could dimension timber to whatever thickness I wanted was a revelation. It may seem daft and obvious now, but it was a big deal at the time.

    I come to realise the versatility of hand tools, where a single tool could be used for a large range of tasks. Also, the first time you feel a sharp plane glide through wood and take a clean shaving is quite something. The sound and feel, it's surely (and hopefully) the closest to an instant addiction I will probably understand. To this day, I'll sometimes just make shavings for no particular reason, it is just such a pleasant experience.

    As I continued working on new projects, I found that dimensioning timber by hand got old very fast. By the time my stock was dimensioned, I had already invested several hours into the process (yes, I'm slow). On a hobby time budget, this was significant. Worse, over time I found that I was reluctant to try tricky things, as messing up would relegate all the preparation work (and time) to the fireplace. As such, I bought a planer/thicknesser machine at the end of last year, and couldn't be happier. I get to spend more time using hand tools for interesting and different things now.

    One of the reasons I find that I enjoy working with hand tools more and more, is the satisfaction of developing a compounding skill set, and that it provides a deep sense of satisfaction. So for me, my intersection really lies in what provides the satisfaction. That also means that as I have no philosophical position, my intersection point will no doubt ebb and flow with time, and skills. It's a journey for me, and I am really enjoying the trip so far.

    So what's your current intersection point, and how did you arrive there?

    Lance

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  3. #2
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    Very interesting read. I'm only early on in my woodworking addiction but I agree wholeheartedly with your comment on sharp planes gliding through timber. Instant Addiction!

    I actually reverted to the hand plane yesterday. I had to make a heat shield for my timber mantle slab as this is the first winter it will be copping the brunt of the fire. Anyway I had chosen a nice blackwood board to act as the heat shield and I wanted to put a 60 degree angle along the front and side edges. I had the option of using the Triton table saw but discarded that idea because I needed to set it up and it isn't very accurate. The Bandsaw was my next option but I discarded for the same reasons. the Jointer came next and after some test cuts I found the fence was inadequate when set at a 30 degree angle, so out came the trusty carter hand plane. 10 minutes later and I was making 2m Blackwood ribbons and as a bonus the kids loved walking around bouncing them like a slinky

  4. #3
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    I have gone the full circle. When I started to build up a set of tools power tools were expensive and exotic things so got by with a very limited set of hand tools. My first power tool was a Black & Decker drill. Over the years I gradually got powered up. These days for modest sized jobs I am happy back mostly on hand tools and also keeping the neighbours happy noise wise. Larger jobs I use the machines for the grunt work of stock prep. Nice as my old planes and handsaws are there are limits. Hand ripping and planing multiple meters of very hard wood can loose it's appeal when you'r arms feel dead. Guess I am handtool first but hanging on to the power backup.
    Regards
    John

  5. #4
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    I'm a bit like orraloon - I started out with a very small number of hand tools. As a 'mature age' undergraduate, my means were very limited, so I couldn't afford that many hand tools, either. I only thought new, back then, beats me why I never thought of second-hand tools, but there weren't as many on the market in those days, anyway (the original owners were still using 'em ). I could only dream of owning stationary power tools, especially a tablesaw & a planer/thicknesser, but there were few such tools available to amateurs in this country in the 60s, and they were totally out of my reach.

    But with a couple of chisels, a decent #5 plane, a couple of indifferent handsaws & a pretty ordinary backsaw, I got by. One of my first major jobs was building a new kitchen in our 'handyman special' first house. That was decades before Bunnies & Ikea, so everything had to be made up from flat stock. I'm embarrassed when I think of that job now, but it must've looked ok, it drew praise from all our friends (none of whom were competent woodworkers, obviously!).

    In the 70s we went to do graduate courses in Canada, and there not only were power tools like tablesaws freely available, they were cheap! We ended up staying in Canada much longer than we'd initially planned & went on to well-paid jobs, so I began accumulating some electron-burners. At the same time, I started reading Fine Woodworking, & my aspirations went up exponentially. There was a definite bias toward hand-tools in those early FWWs, and many of their projects required them to be used with some dexterity. So that's when I fell over the slippery slope to the darkside.

    Lee Valley was well under way by the early 80s, and poring over their annual catalogues was an unholy temptation for any aspiring woodworker. So many luscious, shiny tools - I thought if I had a quarter of what was on offer, I'd be a journeyman cabinetmaker in a week or two! Fortunately, my budget still had plenty of constraints (like a growing family), so I had to ration myself, & acquire only essentials as projects of increasing complexity demanded. Early on, a colleague sold me his cast-off lathe. It was a cheap & cheerful, bouncy little thing, but learning on that turned out to be a good lesson - I couldn't believe how easy turning was when I got my first 'decent' lathe!

    Similarly with hand tools - as I read more about them & acquired a few good oldies to refurbish, both knowledge & skill levels kept increasing. Good tools do not an expert make, but they do make life easier. Acquiring a set of decent BE chisels was a great move & contributed to much easier dovetailing - suddenly, it wasn't such a fearful chore as it had been.

    Fast forward a couple of decades & back in the lucky country. I brought most of the power tools I had with me, not realising that some time before I got home, prices of power tools had dropped to levels comparable to Canada's, so it wasn't as clever as I'd expected. By the time I replaced the motors, I wasn't much better off than if I'd just sold them off & bought new, but we live & learn. I had years of house renovations and furniture-building as the kids grew up, and the tools I brought back with me served me well. By then I was very much appreciating old tools, and they were both cheap & relatively plentiful up to the mid 90s, so I went a bit wild for a while, grabbing stuff I never ended up using, just because it was cheap. Eventually, I became much more selective, and only picked up what I considered top-notch stuff if the price was right, & got rid of ute-loads of the lesser stuff.

    So now I'm retired, and can spend whole weeks in my shed if I like (or allowed ). I have a good lathe, bandsaw, tablesaw and planer/thicknesser, plus a small metal lathe - beyond my wildest dreams of 50 years ago. The hand tools I've acquired have helped me to become a better woodworker, the powered tools make it a lot easier. I quite often prep material by hand, my projects these days tend to be on the smaller side, so it's more bother to dig out the thicky than just get out a few sharp planes (digging out the machine is complicated by those large, flat tables that become a repository for all manner of junk, of course!). But if I want to make a workbench or a set of bookshelves, the thicknesser will be dug out quick-smart.

    For me, it's about enjoying the process, these days, product is important, of course, but there aren't the sametime constraints as I once had. I'm not precious about how I get the job done, I chose the method that will get the result I want, but mostly I use either all, or predominantly hand tools because some tasks are quicker, easier & liable to end up a better job with hand-tools. And I can listen to ABC FM with few interruptions. But some tasks are quicker & easier & good enough for purpose if done mostly by machine - our dog kennels are not exactly fine furniture.

    For each of us, the crossover point will be different - I can do things with hand tools quite easily now, that 40 years ago would've been beyond me even if I'd had a shed full of everything Tom Lie-Nielsen makes. There've been times of frustration and disappointment - you learn by making things & that includes mistakes. A few of my earlier pieces make me wince when I see them now, but a few still look ok & I doubt I could do them better today (just quicker ).

    About the only thing I can say for sure is that if you stick at it, your skills will improve whatever means you use, and when tasks get easier, they usually become more enjoyable. I remember how I once struggled to make decent dovetails, so much so that I'd either avoid them or at least minimise the number for each corner. Nowadays, I more often add a few extras, just for the satisfaction of cutting them.....

    Cheers,
    IW

  6. #5
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    I have a lot of power tools. I used to have a lot of pretty good power tools (7518 router table, a cabinet TS, an 18" bandsaw), and now have power tools that I'd call emergency tools. The TS that i have is the kind that you can hang on a wall with a plastic moulded base. I use it once in a great while for things like cutting trim wood in the garden/stakes, etc. Bandsaw is gone, only small routers left (which are needed for some electric guitar templates - not needed, I guess, but useful with them).

    The power tool that i use the most is a thickness planer, but when I say that, I don't mean that i use it often, but value it when I need to. The mrs wanted me to line the steps to our basement because they have no hand rail and she's for 9 years assumed the kids will fall down them. Now, the steps look like a cherry cattle chute, and hand planing 10-12 foot long pieces of cherry wasn't what I was looking to do. I could have done that work by hand, but was in and out of that project in a weekend with the thickness planer doing the bulk of the work. I didn't use the TS (didn't need to - the ripping is enjoyable) as it's awkward, anyway, and i look forward to the exercise of sawing and am perfecting the left arm to rip with the right (you cannot be stopped in the shop if you can rip and resaw with both arms).

    In the event that the mrs. wanted some case work in duplicates (like four or five cases for the living and dining area that matched, though, I would get the power planer back out, and probably the table saw. I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't want to build those in the first place as there wouldn't be much interesting in them).

    One off pieces, though (whatever they are - one piece of case work, one guitar, one speaker cabinet), a pair of doors...I'll always do that stuff by hand for the specific reason the original poster said. It's what feels good to me, and it's how I do my best work. I have little inclination to decide anything for anyone else, though, or believe i know what pleases them just because it pleases me.

    The fellow who got me into woodworking is a mechanical engineer. He is extremely precise and almost completely devoid of hand tool use. I don't like the way methods dictate how some of his items come out, and it feels like 10% woodworking and 90% machine setup/test pieces in his shop, but his machines are very precise. He hates hand tools other than to have around and look at for the most part, or maybe break an edge on something. He's also an Englishman in the states who left England before the PC era, so I can't really repeat the names he calls me when I talk about doing projects entirely by hand If it stops at "luddite!! I thought I taught you better than that!!", it's only because he's in a hurry and there's polite company around.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post

    About the only thing I can say for sure is that if you stick at it, your skills will improve whatever means you use, and when tasks get easier, they usually become more enjoyable. I remember how I once struggled to make decent dovetails, so much so that I'd either avoid them or at least minimise the number for each corner. Nowadays, I more often add a few extras, just for the satisfaction of cutting them.....

    Cheers,
    I started with machines like that - dancing around things and trying to avoid them. I think when we start as adults and are competent at something else, our ego gets in the way and we don't want to go through the learning curve of everything. But just like music, running straight into it and tolerating the learning curve builds brain and body neurons that carry over to other things. If there wasn't some pain in learning, I don't think there would be much satisfaction in achieving something.

    I used to make careless mistakes in dovetails, and almost always one somewhere on a drawer or case, and then started woodworking mostly by hand completely unrelated to that (I was getting frustrated with moving equipment around and feeling like I was just a shop delivery man moving things from station to station and pushing them through machines). Whatever happened from hours of dimensioning, working to a line, etc, outside of joinery ended up making cutting tenons and dovetails in rhythm really easy (or at least much easier. I still need to laminate something to the side of a tenon once in a while when something gets out of whack).

    I always tell myself when doing something, though ("what makes you think you're so good that you should be able to do something perfect the first time?" The answer is that I'm not so good, so drop the ego).

    Derek will know what i mean by that. I don't mean to confuse the ego I'm talking about with the kind of ego that someone who is overconfident and inconsiderate has toward every one, but instead, the ego that makes you afraid to fail because you're sure that it will just hurt your confidence or cause you to deal negative self talk to yourself "why am I doing this hobby, anyway? I'm no good at it....look at how bad that is" kind of stuff.

  8. #7
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    orraloon said: "Larger jobs I use the machines for the grunt work of stock prep."

    I have not been a serious wood carver (mallets and Pfeil gouges) for 20 years. Carving in the round, each project seemed larger than the previous one.
    I realized that I was working quickly but removing so little stock wood that day to day progress was very hard to follow. Bigger and bigger gouges were just more and more money and little else.

    I have had a variety of power tools, saws, drill press and sanders which took on a renewed attractiveness.
    I learned to come down to 5-10mm from the line as quickly as possible to establish the shape. It's just work.
    Then the fine carving in peace and quiet begins.
    I enjoy watching the chips and long curly shavings spall off the block.

    Fortunately, carvers can make their own tools or even buy just the blades and finish the tool.
    There's a satisfaction in using those that lacks definition.

  9. #8
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    Interesting topic and thanks for bringing it up.

    What we're all chasing is something that tickles our brain cells so it will be different strokes for different folks. Most woody folk fall somewhere on a spectrum between "machinery" focused to "hand tool" focussed use and for a variety of reasons often move up and down the spectrum depending on what else they do. For some they may leave that "spectrum" altogether or it may not apply at all.

    One of the main reasons I took up wood work was because later on in my say job I basically became an administrator/supervisor and found my day job very stressful (line manager for some 60+ persons) , and it taxed my problem solving skills (both technical and non-technical) to the limit. I got to do very little of the hands on problem solving side of my job which is why I was drawn into that field in the first place.

    Relaxation for me, especially during work day evenings was an hour or two spent in quiet repetitive activity that I could zone out with that involved wood and hand tools. I had a few machines but only used them occasionally. An interesting contrast to that was what I did on some weekends ie timber milling, highly machinery based, loud and dirty, but a quick way of accessing useful and generally unavailable timber.
    I also found I liked making hand tools by hand. Although I made a few sets of tools I found I preferred making new - different tools every time.

    After I retired I slowly found I no longer needed the same de-stressing environment and what I craved was more of a challenging variable problem solving environment so this blended into general workshop prototyping and testing eg new tools, jigs and test and measurement gear. I now prefer this much more than repetitive use of tools or machines to make product. As a result I get limited practice at using tools etc for a specific task so I never get very good at doing anything really well manually, but because prototyping involves many more different problems I do get better at thinking up solutions. I call this "Gizmology". I don't differentiate much or sometimes at all between hand or power tools - I use whatever I have on hand.

    This has lead me into spending more time working metal and plastic, and more recently on electronics. I still like wood work but I'm finding metal work and electronics has a greater scope for Gizmology. Metal work, in particular precise metalworking, is an absolute magnet for gizmology because you can literally make almost all of what you need to make the next gizmo. It also involves a lot more measurement which interestingly was what I did at work and I really enjoy it. With electronics I'm finding it involves a lot of micro processor programming which is what I also used to do and enjoy at work. An advantage is that I already having the required theoretical tools stored on board plus years of practice at using them makes it quick and easy for me to use them.

    My definition of success in the workshop is very much process driven and often has little or nothing to do with an end product. Usually I start with some sort of a product (A) in mind. To make A, I inevitably find I need a B and I may go to a store and find out it costs way more than I am prepared to pay especially if I can make it even if it takes me weeks. Then B might need testing and that means it needs testing jig C and before too long I have forgotten all about A - that I call success. I end up with a shed full of gizmos, some of which I never use again, but in the process I do get to solve dozens of interesting problems and able to solve new problems slight quicker than before and most important of all a well tickled brain.

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    ......Usually I start with some sort of a product (A) in mind. To make A, I inevitably find I need a B and I may go to a store and find out it costs way more than I am prepared to pay especially if I can make it even if it takes me weeks. Then B might need testing and that means it needs testing jig C and before too long I have forgotten all about A - that I call success. I end up with a shed full of gizmos, some of which I never use again, but in the process I do get to solve dozens of interesting problems and able to solve new problems slight quicker than before and most important of all a well tickled brain.......
    A good word for it is "pottering", I think. I find myself in a similar situation, not building sequential related gizmos so much as just being easily distracted by some new project that takes my interest, whilst still in the middle of another. My other half sometimes asks me what I've been doing all day, & my common reply is, "Nothing, really, but gee I've had fun!" .....

    Cheers,
    IW

  11. #10
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    My take on pottering is more like the following; start by going down the shed to fix something that's not shed related, make some part of a gizmo, pee, move onto a bit of sharpening, stare vacantly into space, sweep up a messy corner of the shed, throw ball for dogs (or dispose of 7-8 balls brought into shed by dogs), tidy up the screwdriver rack, stare vacantly into space, have a pee and a coffee and check out the forums, put a few things away, make a bit more of said gizmo, empty the shed rubbish bins, pee, sort out a box of screws from dad's old shed, one rolls under the bench where I notice a drill bit and unusual UNF wing nut I have been looking for for some time, stare vacantly into space, tidy up a the drill bit rack and replace missing ones from my stash, pee and a drink of water, replace broken socket on and test extension cord, put a few tools away, throw ball for dogs again, and by then its time for a nap or the whole day has disappeared. Not much has been created but it's been satisfying enough. Yes I have a peeing disorder.

  12. #11
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    Glad I am not the only one that stares vacantly into space.
    Regards
    John

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Yes I have a peeing disorder.
    Yeah, who doesn't
    Pretty common the older we get I suppose .

    What I see all the time is these younger guys carving the solid timber saddle seats for Windsor chairs and stools.
    You see it a bit on Instagram.
    With that rise in the middle they do . I'm thinking," they never had a Catheter in have they !"

    Older blokes need the opposite to the rise. A trench, Catheter or no Catheter.

    like this below makes my eyes water
    seat.png.jpg

  14. #13
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    This thread is travelling to some rather murky corners, lads - we better stick to the topic & not scare the younger readers - they'll find out about that sort of stuff soon enough!

    So to get back on topic - where do we make the crossover between electron and potato (or whichever carbs you prefer) power?

    I think the answers so far are too varied to summarise succinctly, but there's a few generalities I see emerging. The first is that there are several reasons for using hand tools. Perhaps the least defensible (imo) on a logical basis is the perception that hand tools are more 'pure' and virtuous. Feeling the connection with craftsmen of old isn't a bad thing, but that alone won't make you a skilled craftsperson or guarantee a wonderful result. I think you have to take a realistic view - skill develops out of practice, the more effort you put in, the better the dividend, but it doesn't happen overnight. Given the pace & demands of modern life, it's pretty difficult to find the sort of time most of us need to put in to acquire real skill, so you need patience & persistence.

    One sound reason for hand-tool use is they are usually so much quieter. If you live in suburbia & have small children this is a big attraction. It's also far less taxing on the budget to acquire a small kit of essentials, often an overriding consideration for folks at the starting end of woodworking. Those were certainly major drivers in my starting out with hand tools. As I think I've already said, I would've preferred a lot more help from 'lectrickery, thanks! It's also a bit up-hill learning to use tools when you are largely on your own, powered or non-powered, but the former is probably more difficult, or at least is typically perceived to be. Thank goodness for the printing press (somewhat usurped by the interweb, nowadays); books & magazines were a great source of information & inspiration for me.

    Now I'm on the downhill run, I reckon, and enjoying the luxury of choice. My hand skills are probably as good as they'll ever be, and I can tackle most tasks with an expectation it will turn out reasonably close to design stipulations. There are many tasks where I wouldn't think of using machinery, like dovetailing a set of drawers or careful fitting of cabinetry parts. There are some where I wouldn't think of using hand tools, like jointing & thicknessing a pile of hard wood. And there are plenty in between where I choose between the two, depending on factors such as imposed deadlines (we never entirely escape that tyranny).

    Given the mix of hand-tool skills, the pressures on people's time, and the tools we have to hand, the 'crossover points' are always going to be variable, flexible & individual. There are plenty of useful things that can be made entirely by either hand-tools or machinery only, and no-one would know by looking superficially at the object itself, how it got there. So I say, choose your weapons according to your skills, your means, and whether your main driver is product or process.....

    Cheers,
    IW

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    I'll definitely vote for less noise.

    Another aspect is control - especially for less experienced persons using a power tool or machines there are usually greater possibilities for stuffing things up in a very short period.

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    Being a Carpenter (now retired) what ever I do in the shed is under pressure to "get the thing finished!!!". Why ?.....that little voice in my head is trying to make me perform as if I am still making money out of the item. Silly I know but I just can't change my way of working.

    To put into perspective, I found my Disston Panel Saw had a cracked handle from living in the back of my wagon for too long. That would have to be 3 years ago....the handle is still cracked and not repaired and also not used either. I have found I rarely use a hand saw and will use a powered saw be it bandsaw, drop saw, radial arm saw or bench saw to cut something. As also my 4½ Stanley Plane hardly gets used even for creating a arris.

    So I suppose looking at the above one can say I am a total Power Tool User, but when I was working and a cupboard (I was building white board cupboards at this time) didn't fit and needed trimming down I would do the "surgery" on the job and used hand tools mainly to do the job. Unlike my fellows who would bring the cupboard back to base to use workshop machinery to do the "surgery".
    Just do it!

    Kind regards Rod

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