Thread: Why is this a Firmer Chisel?

Just thinking about this chisel...

(image from jimbodetools.com)

It could easily be a "firmer" because it has a steel hoop on the handle and is therefore designed for striking.

Whilst this 3/8" berg is what I would think of as a paring chisel -- especially when compared to a similar sized Lie nielsen -- it too has a hoop at the striking end and a pronounced taper in the land similar to Jim's 3/4" Union chisel.


Perhaps, the near demise of hand work through the 60s, 70s and 80s has thinned out the types of chisel that remain in manufacture to the extent that we no longer recognise the differences which would have been readily apparent to out grandfathers.

Originally Posted by hiroller

.......The same catalog also lists Essex brand chisels, so they may be related!.......

Gavin, if you had the 3/4 Essex I found and one of the New Havens in your hands, I think you could easily enough convince yourself they had the same parents. Seems that area might've been a bit like Sheffield, where a whole heap of small factories subcontracted to make chisels & blades that got stamped with other people's names??

Cheers,

Originally Posted by ian

.......It could easily be a "firmer" because it has a steel hoop on the handle and is therefore designed for striking.....

Well, you need to be consistent & apply that logic to both - so they are both 'firmer' chisels?

Actually, neither chisel would qualify as a firmer in my book, both have pretty thin, bouncy blades that would not like heavy pounding. Neither would I think of the Berg as a paring chisel, it's too short to suit me for that role. All just personal preferences, I choose my chisels based on what I prefer for the particular job.

Originally Posted by ian

.......Perhaps, the near demise of hand work through the 60s, 70s and 80s has thinned out the types of chisel that remain in manufacture to the extent that we no longer recognise the differences which would have been readily apparent to out grandfathers.

Y'know, I think my father & grandfather would have been just as confused & bamboozled as we are! From the old calalogues, and books I've consulted, there doesn't seem to be much consistency between brands, or definitions. I was told at an early age that a 'firmer' chisel was a heavy, straight-sided chisel, as opposed to a BE chisel, which wasn't. A simple and easy to grasp definition, pity it's clearly wrong!!

Cheers,

I agree it's all confusion.

I recall my father calling what I thought was a bevel edge chisel a firmer. I don't quite recall why, but it may have been related to the thickness of the lands.
(The Berg I posted above is one of dad's chisels and although designed for striking is much lighter than a similarly sized Lie Nielsen, so I have "reserved" it for paring duties.)

If you look closely at the 3/4" Union firmer that started this thread, towards the striking end it is maybe 4x as heavy as the 3/4 Robert Sorby paring chisel I own. Based on that difference, calling the Union a paring chisel might be a bit of a stretch.

Firmer Chisels;

Unusual in a hobby, but it turns out some other fellas have considered the same question

Firmer Chisels - Page 2



Turns out this bit is a tangent, but interesting anyway ...

" The French fermoir is a tool with two bevels, deux biseaux. In the 17th and 18th centuries there was steel sandwiched between two pieces of iron, the way some axes are made. Fermoir means clasp in French, and Salivet (1798) explains that the steel is clasped between the iron pieces. Many French sources explain that a fermoir has two bevels, while a ciseau (chisel) has one bevel.

I asked Michel Auriou about this. He said "A fermoir is not a chisel!"

The dictionaries are often helpful on dating words, but they are not perfect."

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by planemaker

Firmer Chisels;

very nice set you have there Stewie, they look like Marples 317s

Originally Posted by IanW

From the old calalogues, and books I've consulted, there doesn't seem to be much consistency between brands, or definitions.

you want consistency? Well perhaps William Maples is a poor choice, but from their 1959 catalog
Page 12, socketed bevel edged firmer chisels


Page 7, tanged bevel edge paring chisels


and to perhaps really confuse
The chisel selection on Pages 1 and 2,

Originally Posted by ian

.......and to perhaps really confuse ...

I rest my case, m'lord.

Interesting parallel discussion that Paul pointed to. Seems like the derivation of the term "firmer" itself is open to debate. So many words in our language don't now mean what they did 200 years ago, and we have a bad habit of corrupting both the spelling & the meaning of 'borrow' words. That's if the term did come into the language by way of French.....

I think a chisel is a firmer if you choose to call it that.....

Cheers,

Now we have all but sorted the "Firmer" aspect for Luke, what is the "Registered" designation?



Regards
Paul

The term "Registered" Chisel has its roots in the fact that up until modern times, unique handle designs were often "registered" with the British government for copyright protection. The correct term for the Sorby "Registered" chisel is a firmer chisel, or it could be called a heavy firmer. The longer version of these chisels are commonly known as framing chisels since there primary applications is in the timber framing trade. Robert Sorby Chisels

Originally Posted by IanW

I rest my case, m'lord.

I think a chisel is a firmer if you choose to call it that.....

'xactly

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Now we have all but sorted the "Firmer" aspect for Luke, what is the "Registered" designation?

so, you have been talking to Joe at Tools for Working Wood ...

From https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...iselguide.html

Registered Chisels
Any chisel except a mortise chisel with square, rather than beveled sizes (sic). Usually hooped. Used in timber framing and of limited use for general woodworking.

Up to now, I always understood that "registered" refereed to the incorporation of a leather washer between the ferule and the tang.

That's also been my understanding of "registered". Having the square, non-beveled sides.