Thread: Flat or hollow

https://paulsellers.com/2014/12/prim...om-times-past/

https://paulsellers.com/2014/12/sharpening-stones-watch-out-for-the-bumps/

https://paulsellers.com/2014/12/shar...u-really-need/

Flat. I don't flatten my stones, though, I keep them close to flat with use, and generally use a single stone and a grinder for day to day use.

Too much is made of "what's right". If it cuts wood easily, it doesn't matter how someone else gets there, it just matters that you, me or whoever else is using the tools can get there quickly enough that we're not using dull tools.

Talking about sharpening and sharpening stones is a good hook to catch a lot of beginners, I guess. Selling stones is a good hook to catch people like me (I am a complete pig for sharpening stones, despite using one at a time).

I like to buy oilstones (although open to looking at say a diamond stone soon for use).

I kicked up here once when it was suggested they were all ugly and boring.

Aside from their durability and utility ... they can be stunning too.

Arkansas, Washita, Charnleywood Green, Belgian Coticule, ... ask the shaving guys. They're the worst!

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

ask the shaving guys. They're the worst!

I am one of those, too! The shaving community goes overboard with the hones. Maintaining a razor requires visiting hones about once per 6 months or once per year, but the key to that is a vintage style linen (real linen, not felt or firehose or denim or anything), and those are only found NOS that I've seen. Maybe there's a modern replacement, but I haven't had much luck.

Most of the old shave hones I've found (if they're of a type that's friable) are not flat, but they were probably used by an individual or barber who used the same razor and the same hone, so the razor and hone were in tune with each other and it didn't matter. mix and match razors and stones, then all of them need to be flat or there will be problems.

I don't mind out of flat stones for woodworking as long as they are not terribly cupped across their width.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I am one of those, too! The shaving community goes overboard with the hones.

Just to clarify ... when I said "the worst" I didn't mean the stones being out of flat ...

I meant the collection of awesome and exotic stones to sharpen on ... or not.

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Just to clarify ... when I said "the worst" I didn't mean the stones being out of flat ...

I meant the collection of awesome and exotic stones to sharpen on ... or not.

Cheers,
Paul

Yeah, I got what you meant. As a shaver, I know exactly what you're saying

I fight the urge to buy more stones all the time. I'd like to get one right now, but I'm resisting the urge. I'd bet that in the last decade, i've spent somewhere north of $7k on various stones, everything from charnley, y/g escher, various suitas, coticules, to the different synthetics, to oddball american stuff (like various slabs of jasper).

The shaving makes the urge worse, and I look at it and think "I don't know why I'd do that, I'm not generally sharpening razors much", but there is an extreme draws to the natural stones. Something about being able to take a stone out of the ground, slab it and make steel really sharp. And do it with the range that natural stones have (and how well they work once you master htem vs. how they didn't work very well for you at first) - there's a serious draw/fascination there.

That's interesting DW , I dint realize there was a shaving community that were into razors and stones.

I follow them (Oil stones) on UK ebay and have found some here at markets. I'm amazed at what labeled Turkey stones have sold for, the one or two I have seen.

My biggest Black Arkansas ( I have found two in 35 years of looking at markets ) was picked up at Camberwell market in amongst looking through piles of Aluminium Oxide cheapies, A real gem.

If this is about flat and does it matter though ?
For a lot of shaving and planing it doesnt matter maybe if your stone has a dip and your blades match it after using it for years.
But
Yes it matters big time for chisels, that the bottom does not develop a curve that matches an out of whack stone.
If the stone is out you can use it in a way that may keep the chisel flat and get away with it .

An out of flat chisel bottom shaves curves which is a problem when cutting fine joints, or doing long paring shaves across end grain , long paring shaves in general really .

Originally Posted by D.W.

Flat. I don't flatten my stones, though, I keep them close to flat with use, and generally use a single stone and a grinder for day to day use.

Too much is made of "what's right". If it cuts wood easily, it doesn't matter how someone else gets there, it just matters that you, me or whoever else is using the tools can get there quickly enough that we're not using dull tools.

Talking about sharpening and sharpening stones is a good hook to catch a lot of beginners, I guess. Selling stones is a good hook to catch people like me (I am a complete pig for sharpening stones, despite using one at a time).

David, is that you!

Only one guy I know in this world who has as many sharpening stones as you do!

Welcome to Ubeaut.

Regards from Perth

Derek

My waterstones wear out fast because I do flatten them during and after use I can't imagine workman of the past not flattening their stones if they didn't then why are the blades in antique tools relatively flat.

Unless one is pushing-and-pulling a blade freehand up-and-down the length of a hollow stone, you will introduce a curve into the blade. Even so, done this way, a hollow stone will round the bevel.

Now if you attempted to hone the blade on a hollow stone using a side-to-side movement, you will quickly create a camber.

Keeping a stone flat is partly technique - learning how to use the whole stone when honing, and not over-using sections. It is also partly routine and discipline - like tidying away tools and sharpening blades at the end of a day (yeah .. right! ).

I think most, if not all, of the hollowed stones belonged to rough-and-ready carpenters and the odd-job man at home, not someone that had pride in their tools. I have never seen a Japanese master woodworker with a hollow stone. When I do hear someone brag that their stones are hollow, all I see is an attempt at being macho - "see, it is not the tools; it's my skill". Crap.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think that makes mre to sense to me than what's on the blog, I do have alot of respect for the guy but this time I think he's wrong.

I've been deliberately keeping out of this but I can't resist pointing out the bleeding obvious, and that is that you'd be driven insane if you use more than one stone (and most of us would use at least two stones, a coarse plus fine?), if they don't match. It seems to me that the only match that makes practical sense is flat. And as Derek says, keeping the back of any tool flat with a dished stone would be a challenge, unless you are one of those who never flatten or polishes backs. And there are such people. An uncle of mine insisted you should never touch the back of a cutting tool on the stone. P'raps that was due the fact that so many oilstones of that era were dished, noone ever seemed to take the trouble to flatten them. I don't know what his rationale was, he was one of those blokes who could get very tetchey if you pushed him too hard for reasons, so I never liked to quizz him too deeply when he pronounced on the 'right' way to doanything. He was a good practical chap in many ways, & I learnt a lot from him that was sound, but that particular fetish never made sense to me....

I was a rusted-on oilstone user until 2 years ago, thanks to my first experience of water stones in the late 70s to early 80s. The stones I tried were bl**dy 'orrible things, I would describe them as dried mud rather than 'stones', they were so soft! But the stone I have come to like is a world apart from that - still a lot softer than an oilstone, and needs regular maintenence, but the speed at which it cuts and the quality of the edge it produces are, to me, well worth the extra effort of keeping it flat. And I agree with Derek that it soon becomes an easy routine that takes no time at all if you do it regularly and don't allow an appreciable dish to even begin.

Cheers,

I am interested if he will make a follow up post on his blog just what findings he will find is interests me, I know what works for me I use water stones and as expensive as they are they beat oil stones hands down.

Originally Posted by IanW

An uncle of mine insisted you should never touch the back of a cutting tool on the stone. P'raps that was due the fact that so many oilstones of that era were dished, noone ever seemed to take the trouble to flatten them. I don't know what his rationale was, he was one of those blokes who could get very tetchey if you pushed him too hard for reasons, so I never liked to quizz him too deeply when he pronounced on the 'right' way to doanything. He was a good practical chap in many ways, & I learnt a lot from him that was sound, but that particular fetish never made sense to me....


Cheers,

He had to touch it on something to take off the burr Though ? I do the same , I mostly use two but sometimes three stones , it will be be the bevel down through the three grades , and I turn it over and do the flat bottom on the finest. Is this what he meant ? Or maybe was he going to a strop or something ? You never asked , I know .
You only need one flat stone that way of course..


Rob