Thread: Frames Saws/Bows Saws for re-sawing small boards 100mm deep

Ian,

Thank you for your welcome. and all your replies Your are correct I am sawing 5-10mm boards (8mm) at 100mm deep as I said re-sawing. I also found the graduated rip teeth of the Japanese Ryoba Saws give you the best accuracy and aggressiveness when necessary. As well as cutting super clean. This said I have not done a lot of ripping with western saws. So to combine a Western style frame saw with a Japanese blade seems like the best of both worlds.

Regards Kate

Originally Posted by Kate84TS

Hi Stewie,

Sorry for not getting back to you I have been super busy with my day job and customer orders. I did take a look at the frame saws you sell I agree ECE make great tools. An the price you have them at is very good as I have seen them retail for much higher else where. I will be at the Melbourne Timber and Working with wood show. Will you have a stall there?

Kate; I have no association with the business I provided you a link too. Never been there, and never purchased any tools from them.

Hi Stewie,

Sorry about the misunderstanding I thought it was your store.

chat soon Kate

Kate, I have the saw that stewie showed, it is sitting behind my bench and unfortunately rusting because it's not as good at what I thought it would be good at (ripping and resawing).

I've found that it's ultimately easier to do accurate resawing (especially if its of any depth) with a good quality carpenters saw with rip profile teeth. If something bigger is needed, you can build a large frame saw roubo style and put traditional rip teeth on it.

A japanese saw is also fine, but a kataba type with larger teeth (nobody makes anything like that new that's of any decent quality until you get into really expensive saws). I've tried two of those in my venture to find practical hand resawing tools, but like the western carpenter's saws better. I didn't like the inexpensive z katabas, and the harder the wood got, the less I liked them.

A user on another forum sent me a $750 saw to try, one that was made by a custom sawmaker in japan who will make whatever you want, and it was lovely for hardwoods like we would saw. Otherwise, most of the rip saws from japan are set up for softer wood, and they are aggravation in hardwoods. A good kataba of the vintage type will have a handle that is at a 45 degree angle to the blade, and it will cut strongly without you having to influence it (as you may have noticed you have to do with a rip ryoba). The vintage types can be had for about $50 to $100 when they show up, but there is no guarantee they'll be set for the type of wood you want to cut, and you often have to do some adjustment for that and possibly some tooth setting. Beware of the multitude of large tooth saws that are sold on ebay and other places that have tall rip teeth rather than the shorter blunt western type - those saws are generally designed for wet wood and wouldn't survive in red gum.

In the end, it makes a western saw just a lot easier to get and work with.

For resawing, if you have the luxury, it's good to have a dozen or so teeth in the cut. So if you're working fairly narrow boards, you'd maybe be better off tracking down something that's 7 teeth per inch than something that's 4 1/2 as was the most common disston rip saw (marked 5 1/2 on the plate).

Originally Posted by D.W.

Kate, I have the saw that stewie showed, it is sitting behind my bench and unfortunately rusting because it's not as good at what I thought it would be good at (ripping and resawing).

I've found that it's ultimately easier to do accurate resawing (especially if its of any depth) with a good quality carpenters saw with rip profile teeth......

That was my initial experience when I first made a bow saw, DW. But I was initially referred by the writings of Tage Frid in his classic Tage Frid Teaches Wookworking where he points out that continental Europe traditionally uses frame saws and the Anglo world uses panel saws. He points out that the bow saw cuts faster because of its narrower kerf, but, if you are used to panel saws then there is a definite learning curve with bow saws and he recommmends 50 practice cuts. As a slow learner it took me more than 100 cuts. But now a bow saw will cut as accurately as a panel saw, and with greater smoothness.

I found that there were two essentialls for accuracy:

• practice, practice and practice, plus
• well tune blade.

After setting and sharpening the blade, I run a fine file down both sides of the teeth until there is a touch of shiny metal on every second tooth - if the edges of the teeth are out of line the saw will want to cut crooked - and then I lubricate the sides of the blade with parafin wax, oil or furniture polish. Finally absolutely no slackness in the blade, especially if you push-cut.

The Japanes blade is much thinner again, cuts much faster and, because of its hardness, cannot be sharpened or tuned. In cutting faster, you can make mistakes even quicker. I lubricate the blades and needed more practice.

For resawing, if you have the luxury, it's good to have a dozen or so teeth in the cut. So if you're working fairly narrow boards, you'd maybe be better off tracking down something that's 7 teeth per inch than something that's 4 1/2 as was the most common disston rip saw (marked 5 1/2 on the plate).

All good advice. But Kate wants to cut timber between 5-10 mm, so if we need an absolute minimum of three teeth in the material at any point in time, for the thinner wood she need a pitch of 1.67 mm or finer. That is, 16 tpi which equates to a fine dovetail saw. For 10 mm, perhaps 10 tpi would be a good choice - the finer saw would also cut this smoother, but slower.

Great thread.


Cheers

Graeme

Kate wants to resaw board into 5-10mm thickness. We don't know what the width is.

I have heard tage frid's advice that frame saws are faster, but that's only the case with a poorly set up handsaw. I haven't noticed it to be the case, especially ripping material. I do find cutting a wide panel to length right on the mark a lot easier with a carpenters saw. It can be done with a bowsaw, but there is less wander with a carpenter's saw given the same amount of experience on each.

I do like bowsaws for small work like plane wedges, etc, but not for long rips. I also don't favor stuff like the turbocut blades because it's $55 in the trash on the large bowsaw, once it's dull. I think my large ECE bowsaw only cost me $55 to start. And they won't rip as well as as a low rake carpenter saw that's freshly sharpened - and that is probably where I'm looking most for speed because I sometimes build only with hand tools from rough lumber.

I wanted to like the framesaw more than carpenters saws, but for me, it wasn't to be.

For every Tage, there's someone with experience who preferred carpenters saws and knew how to set them up so that they're getting the most out of each stroke.

Originally Posted by D.W.

Kate wants to resaw board into 5-10mm thickness. We don't know what the width is.

Quite correct; I mis-read Kate's post. Sorry.

I have heard tage frid's advice that frame saws are faster, but that's only the case with a poorly set up handsaw.

This can only be true if you rewrite some very basic laws of physics. Apply a certain amount of energy to a saw and it can remove a certain quantity of saw dust. The frame saw has a thinner blade than a panel saw, which is why it has the frame, so it cuts a narrower kerf but produces the same amount of sawdust - each stroke cuts deeper. In summary, for each saw stroke:

• panel saw cuts a thicker shallower kerf,
• frame saw cuts narrower but deeper kerf,
• Japanese turbo blade cuts even narrower and even deeper kerf,
• AND all remove the same volume of timber as saw dust. They are equally efficient at removing sawdust! Just the shape of the hole changes.

I haven't noticed it to be the case, especially ripping material. I do find cutting a wide panel to length right on the mark a lot easier with a carpenters saw. It can be done with a bowsaw, but there is less wander with a carpenter's saw given the same amount of experience on each.

A lot will say that. But if you asked the million plus woodworkers in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Scandinavia and the rest of continental Europe the vast majority would say the reverse. I think it is what you learned on. Just as the Japanese say a natural saw stroke is a pull-stroke.

I wanted to like the framesaw more than carpenters saws, but for me, it wasn't to be.

For every Tage, there's someone with experience who preferred carpenters saws and knew how to set them up so that they're getting the most out of each stroke.

And ain't that the truth. Whatever works for you....

Personally, I use four frame saws ranging in size from 200 to 700 mm for different jobs, plus Japanese saws plus back saws, especially a smaller dovetail or gentleman's saw. I now rarely use a panel saw except where the bulk of a frame saw is restrictive. For longer rip cuts I even use the Makita (sacrilege on this sub-forum.)


Cheers

Graeme

My take on the material Kate is using is that the timber is 100mm deep and she is re-sawing boards up to 10mm thick. What we don't know is how long these boards are. From post #17:

"Thank you for your welcome. and all your replies Your are correct I am sawing 5-10mm boards (8mm) at 100mm deep as I said re-sawing...."

As usual, we tend to focus on our own favourites .

I think the length of the timber may have some bearing on the final choice of weapon. There is possibly a dilemma between acclimatising to a new method of sawing and what in accomplished hands may be the fastest method. Actually I use "fastest" with some reservation as my experience with just conventional western saws is that by using the weight of the saw only, sawing can be performed for quite a long period. Try to speed up or force that and fatigue raises it's ugly head fairly quickly. Ripping is more demanding than crosscutting.

Neither do we know what the timber is. Royal timbers, being too hard, may preclude the use of JP saws for example

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

This can only be true if you rewrite some very basic laws of physics. Apply a certain amount of energy to a saw and it can remove a certain quantity of saw dust. The frame saw has a thinner blade than a panel saw, which is why it has the frame, so it cuts a narrower kerf but produces the same amount of sawdust - each stroke cuts deeper. In summary, for each saw stroke:

• panel saw cuts a thicker shallower kerf,
• frame saw cuts narrower but deeper kerf,
• Japanese turbo blade cuts even narrower and even deeper kerf,
• AND all remove the same volume of timber as saw dust. They are equally efficient at removing sawdust! Just the shape of the hole changes.

I can't agree unreservedly with the the theory that each type of saw design has exactly the same efficiency, and that the same volume of saw dust is created for the same effort no matter which style you use.

Originally Posted by Colin62

I can't agree unreservedly with the the theory that each type of saw design has exactly the same efficiency, and that the same volume of saw dust is created for the same effort no matter which style you use.

Colin, I would've agreed with you unhesitatingly, once, but having done some experimenting with blades of different thicknesses, I'm not so sure. I've many times seen the statement "a thinner blade cuts a narrower kerf, so it cuts quicker". A couple of years ago, I put that to the test using three saws that were the same size, had the same tooth pitch & profile, but quite different plate thickness (15, 25 & 30 thou, if I remember correctly). I made about 10 cuts with each, using exactly the same number of strokes. There was a bit more variation in my cuts than I would have expected, but that was for each saw. When I measured & averaged the cuts for each saw, there was no difference. Thinking about it, I decided that it made perfect sense - you have the same number of teeth cutting on each stroke, so why would you expect one to cut more slowly. Indeed, the thicker saw is removing more wood, so it takes more power for each stroke, but even though the thickest saw was twice as thick as the thinnest, it wasn't enough for me to be aware of during the few minutes I was using them. However, if you used the saws for a longer period, I imagine you'd eventually notice the extra effort.

I'm in D.W.'s camp at the moment, when it comes to serious resawing using potato power. I made myself a frame saw for resawing but it wasn't a raging success, partly because I used a rather narrow blade and it was a beast to keep straight, even though I pre-kerfed the boards I wanted to resaw on the tablesaw. I think it would've been a lot better if I'd had someone (preferably another experienced sawyer! ) on the other end, but on my own, I found it rather awkward to use & just couldn't get up a good rhythm. So when I had to resaw some 300mm wide boards of Qld Maple recently, I went back to my old faithful, a 28" progressive pitch Disston. It was much easier to manage on my own, but the wide blade introduced much more friction than the narrow framesaw blade, so I certainly shed a drop or two of sweat by the time I'd made 6 cuts I needed to split those1200mm boards.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Colin, I would've agreed with you unhesitatingly

I think we do agree, although I worded my comment rather clumsily, and I think I managed to mislead you.

While I am happy to concede that a thicker kerf may take more power, and may cut slower, I don't believe that doubling the kerf doubles the power or halves the speed.

Not sure how useful this is for making a frame saw, but it could be worth a try.
I have a 30inch (750mm) Bahco bowsaw that I use for cutting up firewood - some is green and some is dry.
I started off with the standard green wood saw blade for it, and then found I could buy a "dry wood" blade for it (cost about $19 NZ). It was not usually stocked so I had to get the Mitre10 shop to order it in.
This blade has double edged, induction-hardened ripsaw teeth so it cuts both directions and it is about 20mm wide and very thin to reduce the sawing effort - the end result is that it cuts very fast.
As Bahco makes different size bowsaws, the same style blades are available in different lengths; I think there are 24inch (600mm) and 36inch (900mm).
The blades come with mounting holes predrilled at both ends.
My only worry would be how much they could wander as 20mm is not all that wide.

One thing I have seen is that whatever saw you choose for resawing by hand - a kerfing plane is an invaluable tool for keeping it (more or less) on track... It helps you to do your part better.

They dont really make up for poorly set or dull saws... But it sure is a lot easier to drive in the groove...

Re kerfing plane - I have used my plough plane with a 3mm cutter installed, seems to help.