Thread: Gramercy Sash saw

Colen Centon has Grammercy saws at the Sydney show. Go and try one.

Also if you haven't already read it for $7 at the show buy the Aus wood review to get IanWs treatise on what to look for in a back saw.

Yep went their on Friday and bought some planes of Terry and a good marking out gauge of Colen but forgot to ask him how much I seen the dovetail saw but not the Sash saw

Originally Posted by BOX

Has any one had anything to do with the Gramercy Sash saw it supposed tobe an all rounder for Ripping and Cross cutting looks the part though

It's a very nice saw. I use it for tenons (rip teeth). It cuts Jarrah smoothly and reasonably quickly. Nice balance. Comfortable handle. Well made.



Only ever used it for ripping. It is not designed for smooth crosscuts. I use a saw with crosscut teeth for that.

Keep in mind that all saws can be used in all situations. A rip tooth can have fleam added to get closer to the shape of a crosscut, which slices. It may be smoother in the crosscut but it will be slower in the rip. That is a compromise that you decide to make. Rip is better for rip, and crosscut is better for crosscut.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the info Derek by the time you do the exchange rates including freight its around $320 ish , Colen Clenton had there Dovetail saw at wood show for sale but forgot to ask him the price.He may also have the Sash saw as well I don't know.

Cheers Bob

I haven't tried the saw in question, but from my own mucking about with 'hybrid' tooth patterns, I've decided they are largely a waste of time & I agree with Derek that you are better off with a 'real' crosscut or a 'real' rip in larger tooth sizes, and use them accordingly. Look on it as a perfect excuse for acquiring more tools.

When you get to about 16tpi or finer, there is not that much difference in performance between rip & x-cut profile in most woods. You may get a little more breakout with rip teeth, but not so much you can't live with it in the majority of situations. My favourite D/T saw is 15tpi and I use it for both the rip & shoulder cuts with no problems. So for the average punter, who doesn't want a rack full of backsaws, you can economise when it comes to finer pitches. They are also far easier to sharpen if you are not the full monty on saw-sharpening, and 'sharp' is always trumps.

When it comes to coarser pitches (12tpi & fewer), I find that crosscuts work best (on the sorts of woods I cut - mileages vary!) with at least 12-14 degrees of rake (more is fine, too), and about 20 degrees of fleam. The reason is that crosscut teeth are a bunch of knives, not the 'chisel' tips of ripping teeth. The more negative rake, the better the 'slicing' action & the less danger of breakout on the exit side. The more fleam, the sharper the knife, but the more delicate the edge, and the more often it will need attention from the file, so you trade-off according to your preferences and the woods you generally saw.

The teeth on the Grammercy at 5 degrees negative rake and 7 degrees fleam (quoting from their own ad) are neither fish-flesh, fowl nor good red herring, imo. But please take that as an opinion, not dogma, they may well work splendidly in some situations. I would also prefer a coarser pitch than 13ppi on a 14" saw - that's a fair chunk of metal and quite up to whacking out large tenons, so no more than 10tpi would be my preference. Again, just personal preference...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by BOX

Thanks for the info Derek by the time you do the exchange rates including freight its around $320 ish , Colen Clenton had there Dovetail saw at wood show for sale but forgot to ask him the price.He may also have the Sash saw as well I don't know.

Cheers Bob

Hi Bob

I haven't looked at prices in quite some while. I purchased the Sash saw when visiting Joel at Tools for Working Wood (in Brooklyn) in 2013. Joel made me a gift of the dovetail saw. In spite of this potential bias, I did write a review of the dovetail saw, which is on my website:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...vetailSaw.html

The Gramercy Dovetail Saw is a little different to most others out there. I like it very much. I would consider that it is more a saw for an experienced dovetailer than someone starting out.

Regards from Perth

Derek

p.s. Ian, the reason you are able to use a 15 tpi rip dovetail saw for tenon cheeks is because you have that woosy wood in Queensland!

Here in WA - Man's Country - we use 10- or 11 tpi !! Best regards

Originally Posted by derekcohen

...p.s. Ian, the reason you are able to use a 15 tpi rip dovetail saw for tenon cheeks is because you have that woosy wood in Queensland!

Here in WA - Man's Country - we use 10- or 11 tpi !!......

Yeah, well, working with woosy woods like Qld Maple gets more and more appealing as I get more decrepit, Derek!

I know you are just having a little (envious ) dig at my good fortune to live amongst more tractable timbers, but for the record, I don't even consider the wood hardness when selecting a saw for any particular job. The width of cut and the desired fineness of the sawn surface determines that. I'd select the same saw to cut a board of a given width or thickness whether it was Hoop Pine or Gidgee. I suspect you do much the same, but you do have to sharpen more often....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by BOX

Thanks for the info Derek by the time you do the exchange rates including freight its around $320 ish , Colen Clenton had there Dovetail saw at wood show for sale but forgot to ask him the price.He may also have the Sash saw as well I don't know.

Cheers Bob

Bob

if you are in the market for a NEW* premium saw, and your budget is nudging $300, then you have lots of choices.

The best cutters for your coin would have to be these Veritas® Dovetail & Crosscut Saws - Lee Valley Tools or these Set of Three Veritas® Joinery Saws - Lee Valley Tools
Carbatech should have them, but I'm not sure of the Australian price for the set.
I've made some test cuts with the large tenon saw -- and found I could easily cut a 3mm cheek for a notional 50 mm long tenon.
In my hands I find the Veritas carcass and mid-sized rip saws easier to start than my LN equivalents, but the LNs are, again in my hands, nicer saws to use.




* refurbished older saws are a whole separate discussion.

Thanks everyone for the advice I'll take it on board when choosing one

Bob

You could also consider a vintage refurbished saw from the "golden era." That way you may be able to stretch your budget to both a dedicated rip saw and a dedicated cross cut. Compromise tools very rarely seem to be satisfactory.

Regards
Paul

You could always get the kit and make your own handle.
https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...2_Sash_Saw_Kit

Originally Posted by BOX

Thanks everyone for the advice I'll take it on board when choosing one

Hi Bob

A premium back saw -- like those from Gramercy, Bad Axe, Mike Wenzlof, Two Lawyers, etc -- are intended for people buying their second or third back saw. People who are prepared to pay a premium for a really really good saw, and more importantly people who know how to start and use a back saw.

If this will be your first back saw, or is to replace a $15 back saw you got from Mitre10 or Masters, I strongly suggest that you look at the Veritas saws from Carbatech (or direct from Lee Valley). The Veritas (Lee Valley) saws are significantly less expensive and represent the best bang for your buck (if buying a new saw) -- their only down side is their looks.


I say the above, because if you knew your way around saws, you'd happily buy the Gramercy on its reputation.

Hi Ian,
Not to sure if your having a go at me or not but, about the Gramercy saws reputation I know because I have one of their Dovetail saws I was mearly asking peoples opinion on the Sash saw as they say its an all rounder

Originally Posted by BOX

Hi Ian,
Not to sure if your having a go at me or not but, about the Gramercy saws reputation I know because I have one of their Dovetail saws I was mearly asking peoples opinion on the Sash saw as they say its an all rounder

Hi Bob

No I'm not having a go at you. However, not knowing your experience with premium saws I was concerned that you might have been looking to the Gramercy 14" sash saw as a once in a lifetime purchase of a premium saw.

In regards to the saw's rip and cross-cut filing, I'm in agreement with IanW preferring separate rip and cross cut carcass or sash saws.