Thread: Hand Plane

Originally Posted by royflatmate

..... Doubt whether to many people would have seen one.....

Unless they're instrument makers, in which case they probably have quite a few.....


Cheers,

Looks like a Norris No.2 convex soled finger plane. Are you able to see if there is a tiny “TN” monogram stamped on either the lever cap and/or the blade?

Edit: just realised the website refers to them as “violin planes”: I have often heard them called that but pretty sure their official name is “finger” plane.

Not my plane Ian but a friend who’s a bit of a collector. He said that there is a smaller one than this. It is a terry Norris plane.

cheers. Roy

Yes Chief Tiff it did have TN stamped on the blade. Should of taken a picture.

cheers. Roy

Yup, I bought a set for mandolin making years ago. I use them for easing edges on anything I build. You can get pretty close into corners with them, close enough is good enough for me. I love them.

Originally Posted by banjopicks

Yup, I bought a set for mandolin making years ago. I use them for easing edges on anything I build. You can get pretty close into corners with them, close enough is good enough for me. I love them.

I made a few finger planes, just for fun and have found them much more useful than I expected. You can live a happy & fulfilled life without them, of course, but they can be handy for all sorts of little jobs & don't take up much space between times. I gave one to a friend who is a passionate model-maker & he reckons it's the bees' knees for his work.

Mine are a bit bigger than the one Roy illustrated above (blade width ~19mm). I don't think I could use anything smaller nowadays with my arthritic fingers: Size cf coin.jpg

That is actually the 2nd one I made. The first had a flat sole and with this one I rounded the sole as much as I could without compromising the dovetails. I should have shaped the sole before dovetailing the sides, so someday I might make another one, starting with a thicker sole & shaping it before dovetailing it to the sides. In the meantime this one is capable of following shallow curves on chair seats, so handy enough to keep around.

This one has the sides made from a single piece: Size.jpg

It seems to be traditional to have the blades very long, for reasons I can't fathom. I tried a long blade with my first one but found it a nuisance - it's not practical or comfortable to hold it by the blade like I do with my mini mitre plane so the long blade just got in the way. Gven the number of re-grinds the blade is ever likely to need, I decided to shorten it. That made it more comfy for me. But the fact that long blades are universal indicates there may be a reason I simply haven't discovered...

Cheers,

I have a slightly bigger one than a 'finger' plane... a Spiers 'thumb' chariot plane. I guess they are both smaller than a 'hand' plane...

They were also made with a very long blade with a sneck on the end, which was used to back off the blade by tapping it back. The length of the blade allowed that to be done without hitting the back of the lever can or screw knob.

I don't know if the original owner of the one I have decided that they didn't like the long blade or had sharpened the original blade away, but mine has a chisel replacement with a quite comfortable small knob handle.

Because so few of these were made by Spiers and Norris, they are valuable collectors pieces, but unfortunately they want the original long snecked blades...

Here is the one I have with its replacement blade...

20230622_121035.jpg

20230622_121245.jpg

The missing original lever cap screw knob is also an issue for the collectors. Here is one in its original condition with the sneck on the end of the blade...

Buck-Spiers.No_.9.Thumb_.Plane_.Jim_.Bode_.2016.jpg

Holtey has also made his own version of it... "Holtey Classic Handplanes No.10 Mitre plane."

I'm thinking about making a replica replacement knob and finding a blade that might be more to the liking of the collectors. I have had a look at Ian's DIY manual to get a few ideas for the lever cap screw knob, thanks...

Wow Neil!
What is the stamp on the lever cap ? Looks like an owner has stamped it . Does it have a Spiers stamp as well?
And what kind of thread is it that goes through the lever cap? A square thread or more the standard metal Whitworth type ?
What is the story of how you found that ?

Rob

I second Rob's response - that's a cute little plane and well worth having despite the non-original parts. If the thumbscrew thread is something common, I'd be happy to make you something a bit more like the original (it would save hunting for a screwdriver whenever you need to loosen the LC). It looks like a standard machine screw, but it may not necessarily match the original thread, as it's all too easy to force a steel screw into a brass thread that doesn't quite match!

I rather like the blade solution, though using a bevelled chisel means the lever-cap only closes on half of the blade - it would not be hard to make a pretty convincing snecked blade if you wanted to return it to it's original appearance, but maybe you have gotten used to the knob & prefer it that way!

Cheerts,
IaN

Ain't Terminology Confusing ?

Neil's delightful little plane can variously be described as a thumb plane, an instrument maker's plane, a violin maker's plane, a chariot plane, even a finger plane ....

But it is not a chisel plane!

Chisel Plane.jpg

Just coincidence that the blade looks like a butt chisel?

Originally Posted by auscab

Wow Neil!
What is the stamp on the lever cap ? Looks like an owner has stamped it . Does it have a Spiers stamp as well?
And what kind of thread is it that goes through the lever cap? A square thread or more the standard metal Whitworth type ?
What is the story of how you found that ?

Rob

Yes, Rob, the large H. MOORE is a past owner's stamp. Initially that was all that was obvious by way of a possible maker's mark.

The story behind this little chariot thumb plane is that I was helping a mate who is in his eighties and about to make a move into his last shed. He asked me to help him to see if there were any tools that he didn't want to take with him that might be worth selling. I spotted the little plane high up on a shelf covered in dust. It was the knob on the chisel blade that first caught my attention. When I got it down I could see that it was a little infill and a bit different, but is was in such a bad condition that I couldn't see much more than that there and then, so I offered to take it home to have a closer look at it. He said if you want it you can have it, but that was before we realised what it was!

Here is how it looked when I first got it down from the shelf... SORRY, I'm not sure why these not showing. I might have to post separately...

Attachment 531748
Attachment 531762

Attachment 531763
Attachment 531750

And here is the lever cap with what appeared to be the maker's or owner's stamp...

Attachment 531751
Attachment 531764

The small wood infill under the blade was ebony, so I thought with that amount of care it could be something more than normal, but I couldn't find anything about a plane maker with the name H. MOORE, but though there might be something else stamped faintly on the lever cap that wasn't readable in the condition it was in. So, I did some gentle polishing of the bronze lever cap, a no-no for the collectors, but at that stage I didn't know it was collectable, which revealed the following still only faintly legible inscription...

Attachment 531752
Attachment 531765

I've added some arrows and lettering to the photo showing where name BUCK is stamped and below that TOTT^m COURT R^d. Further investigation found that the tool seller George Buck of Tottenham Court Rd. in London sold the planes made by Spiers and later Norris with the BUCK stamp on the lever cap. Both Spiers and Norris made and stamped their thumb chariots with their own stamps, but also made them for Buck without their own stamps on them. The ones made by Spiers are slightly distinct from those made by Norris. Here are examples of the ones made and stamped by themselves...

Attachment 531759 Attachment 531760

Several 'experts' have since agreed with me that mine (well, actually my mate's) is a Spiers.

Originally Posted by IanW

I second Rob's response - that's a cute little plane and well worth having despite the non-original parts. If the thumbscrew thread is something common, I'd be happy to make you something a bit more like the original (it would save hunting for a screwdriver whenever you need to loosen the LC). It looks like a standard machine screw, but it may not necessarily match the original thread, as it's all too easy to force a steel screw into a brass thread that doesn't quite match!

I rather like the blade solution, though using a bevelled chisel means the lever-cap only closes on half of the blade - it would not be hard to make a pretty convincing snecked blade if you wanted to return it to it's original appearance, but maybe you have gotten used to the knob & prefer it that way!

Thank you for your kind offer and advice, Ian.

I'm fairly certain that the thread on the thumbscrew is 5/16" 18tpi BSW and I don't think there has been any cross threading inside the brass lever cap. I gently ran that size tap through the thread in the lever cap and it seemed to go right through without interference.

I've been looking at the thumbscrew cap designs on old Spiers and he seemed to use three basic designs for his lever cap screw knobs, the most distinctive being this style with knurled convex sides and ogee top...

Attachment 531761

Being a woodturner and having turned a few brass ferrules I think I could manage the ogee and the concentric grooves myself, but not sure how to go about the longitudinal grooves, other than by using the indexing on the lathe and cutting/filing by hand. I think the bolt component were also in brass/gunmetal, so for authenticity I might have to try my hand at some thread cutting as well.

If I tackle any of this I will post a WIP thread and get your valuable input, Ian.

Unfortunately the lovely little bevel chisel has run out of travel and its tang will hit the back of the lever cap if sharpened any further, so that will have to be replaced for the plane to continue as a user. I have searched for an authentic replacement blade, but without any luck there, so I don't think there is any way to get anything like an authentic snecked replacement blade for it.

Another way to go is to add a top-end blade to it and not pretend it's authentic.

I did ask Karl Holtey if he would sell me one of his replacement A2 blades for his No10 (that would be the closest I got to a Holtey)... but, of course, he is keeping those for customers who have parted with the big bucks for his planes...

Also thought about a Terry Gordon blade, but those are all too thick.

I do have a hand forged Japanese chisel of just the right width, but the soft iron lamination on that makes it too thick for it to fit in without butchering it, although it would make a sublime blade. There is one maker of customised snecked blades for sale, but only in O1 carbon steel...

Plane Irons


Or, I could bodgie one up myself...


Song for the sneckless


but, I'm not much chop when it comes to metal work, so I'm still scratching my head deciding what to do and getting splinters under my nails.....

There is one maker of customised snecked blades for sale, but only in O1 carbon steel...


http://www.phillyplanes.co.uk/irons.html


Or, I could bodgie one up myself...


https://www.daedtoolworks.com/song-for-the-sneckless/


but, I'm not much chop when it comes to metal work, so I'm still scratching my head deciding what to do and getting splinters under my nails....

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

......Neil's delightful little plane can variously be described as a thumb plane, an instrument maker's plane, a violin maker's plane, a chariot plane, even a finger plane ....

Just semantics, Graeme, but "chariot plane" is probably not one of the names you could apply to Neil's plane. The thumb planes offered by Norris would seem to be of similar size & similar function to his chariot plane. About the only real difference is the side profile, but Norris did distinguish between them, for whatever reason (marketing, no doubt!)...

Both chariots & thumb planes are the British answer to the American block plane. But in the reserved English tradition, just two types were enough, not the plethora of sizes & types Stanley created!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by NeilS

Here is how it looked when I first got it down from the shelf... SORRY, I'm not sure why these not showing. I might have to post separately...

Apologies, no go with adding those photos, will have to post another time.

Neil, I reckon that knob is copy-able with a little care. I can make the basic 'Turk's cap' shape easily enough, it's the rounded knurling that would take a bit more ingenuity, but Rob has shown the way with some hand-held rope knurling on a curved surface. I've made a few knobs with simpler knurling approximating some of the designs of the late 19thC by a combination of hand work & using the knurling tool on the lathe: 8 pair b.jpg

Of course the only way to restore full collector value would be to find a genuine spare thumbscrew (good luck!) and blade (even more good luck!), so restoration to good 'user' state seems the best idea to me.

A couple of years ago I would have shied away from making a blade too, but I've had such good success making blades for small planes lately I wouldn't hesitate to give that a go. I apply the 'sneck' by riveting on an extra piece & when it's done well, you would be flat-out telling it's not an integral part of the blade: 8 pic.jpg

I'll be happy to help in any way when you get around to the 'restoration' - the blade would be the easiest part, & I could soon cobble one of those up for you if you wish....
Cheers,
Ian

PS, your pics are still not uploading properly - dunno what's going on - you may need to 'report' it & have one of the more capable IT folks sort it out for you...