Thread: Hand ripsawing insanity

Had a thought about at the look of the route saw in the photo and when hunting for old photos of "vintage" route saws not the modern ones. Found this

00E0E_2BBeItWBbnYz_0dH0t2_1200x900-2.jpg


Clearly offset. Food for thought.

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Hi All

Noticed in this 17th century French plate that the fellow ripping the timber was sing the Roubo saw vertically. Screenshot 2024-04-10 at 12.52.02 pm.jpg
I assume he was lifting the saw and then effectively dropping it to make the cut.

Anyone used roubo frames in this "traditional" fashion? What's it like?

While serving my curiosity into this technique, ran accoss this site - Convertible Frame Saw — Pixel & Timber - had never consider adding a fence to frame saw- not suprising as I don't have one- but it is interesting. Have alog herein need sawing ip and may be too heavy / large for the bandsaw. cCannot see why a Roubo saw cannot be built with at least on strut moveable. So it should be possible to have one side act as a fence. The structure is determinate, as far as I can see.
There a recent thread on using kerfing planes which suggests that approach for guiding blades is a challenge.


Will consider making one, if the log cannot cannot be broken up , Have a at least one 25mm carbide bandsaw blade that lost some teeth that could be used and I guess the rest of the hardware Bunnings will provide.

Regards

Artist’s back then, and before them were well know for taking “Artistic liberty” ie don’t worry about be correct guys just make sure it looks good.

Cheers Matt.

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Artist’s back then, and before them were well know for taking “Artistic liberty” ie don’t worry about be correct guys just make sure it looks good.....

While that may well be true in many cases Matt, I think the way this bloke is shown using the saw is a genuine technique, I've seen several pics over the years of saws being used so. It may look a bit awkward to our eyes, but I reckon it's a practical approach for resawing a board, especially one lying on trestles. The alternative is a bit inconvenient if it's a long board: bamboo frame saw.jpg

What looks equally awkward to me is someone using a thumb-hole ripsaw vertically like the frame saw above. I saw quite a few old blokes ripping that way when I was a kid - I've tried it but find it excessively tiring & could not see any advantages in working that way. Perhaps if I'd persisted it would have become easier (or started an apprenticeship at 11 or 12 like many of them did!).

The thought occurred to me that we seem to have a bit of a thing for using saws vertically in the west. Back when it was all done by potato power, they'd break the log down with a pit saw. Maybe the blokes resawing those billets just followed the lead with their handsaws..??

In Asia, I watched village people breaking down logs lying on the ground, using frame saws, and sawing boards off one be one horizontally. The blokes in the pic above were just whipping up some small boards from a branch or small tree (a white cedar, btw). The pair sawing up the log were amazingly deft at it, they squatting instead of kneeling as we did when sawing logs into billets, and just shuffled along with the saw. Squatting like they did would have killed my legs!

As I often say, it's all about what you are used to...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

What looks equally awkward to me is someone using a thumb-hole ripsaw vertically like the frame saw above. I saw quite a few old blokes ripping that way when I was a kid - I've tried it but find it excessively tiring & could not see any advantages in working that way. Perhaps if I'd persisted it would have become easier (or started an apprenticeship at 11 or 12 like many of them did!).

The thought occurred to me that we seem to have a bit of a thing for using saws vertically in the west. Back when it was all done by potato power, they'd break the log down with a pit saw. Maybe the blokes resawing those billets just followed the lead with their handsaws..??

This looks like one of those thumb-hole rip saws Ian doesn't it ?
Possibly a couple of Queensland blokes ripping of a bit of figured Maple or Red Cedar for a job?

old_ump.jpg

Earlier again is this one. Not a frame saw. Interesting Aussie picture though by the looks of it.

old01965r.jpg

Ive never used a frame saw for more than a few minutes just to have a try. Ive used a bow saw a little bit for shaping stuff like shaped aprons in one inch thickness timber. They are quite good!

Thank goodness for big old cheap band saws though.

Originally Posted by IanW

While that may well be true in many cases Matt, I think the way this bloke is shown using the saw is a genuine technique, I've seen several pics over the years of saws being used so. It may look a bit awkward to our eyes, but I reckon it's a practical approach for resawing a board, especially one lying on trestles. The alternative is a bit inconvenient if it's a long board: bamboo frame saw.jpg

What looks equally awkward to me is someone using a thumb-hole ripsaw vertically like the frame saw above. I saw quite a few old blokes ripping that way when I was a kid - I've tried it but find it excessively tiring & could not see any advantages in working that way. Perhaps if I'd persisted it would have become easier (or started an apprenticeship at 11 or 12 like many of them did!).

The thought occurred to me that we seem to have a bit of a thing for using saws vertically in the west. Back when it was all done by potato power, they'd break the log down with a pit saw. Maybe the blokes resawing those billets just followed the lead with their handsaws..??

In Asia, I watched village people breaking down logs lying on the ground, using frame saws, and sawing boards off one be one horizontally. The blokes in the pic above were just whipping up some small boards from a branch or small tree (a white cedar, btw). The pair sawing up the log were amazingly deft at it, they squatting instead of kneeling as we did when sawing logs into billets, and just shuffled along with the saw. Squatting like they did would have killed my legs!

As I often say, it's all about what you are used to...

Cheers,

Ian,
Possibly, the gentleman does look like he’s only sawing a short Board, tho is feet look awkward, but I’m just trying too score points [emoji6].

I don’t think that approach would work on a longer cut tho, you would need too orient the Board like the guys in Asia you saw,

Mind you all three guys looked like they could go all day tho, lol.

Cheers Matt.

In this video about German framesaws the saw is indeed used vertically for a long rip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=mPQlGimy6aRd4rq5&v=b3IDDN1kj3U&feature=youtu.be

Right at the beginning.

In my view at least the advantage, that the whole board can be clamped to the bench. It does not stick put high above a vise and vibrates like a lambs tail.


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I can highly recommend the Humble Pie with Cream tonight it’s delicious,[emoji849][emoji849].

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Artist’s back then, and before them were well know for taking “Artistic liberty” ie don’t worry about be correct guys just make sure it looks good.

Cheers Matt.

This may have been true for non-technical subjects. For the technical pictures, the drawings were generally careful to display things accurately and perhaps emphasize certain things that are not intuitive, such as posture and tool use.

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Had a thought about at the look of the route saw in the photo and when hunting for old photos of "vintage" route saws not the modern ones. Found this

00E0E_2BBeItWBbnYz_0dH0t2_1200x900-2.jpg


Clearly offset. Food for thought.

the metallic fixtures are not affixed to the frame - they are moved around as needed and then held in place by blade tension. if you look at the saw, you'll see the dark stains where the fixtures generally were.

These saws are used with the blade in the middle, but this is a saw for resawing and veneer and would've had two man operation in a working shop, so not the same as the frame saw above being used to rip.

So, here's the deal on the frame saw ripping wood - large rip saws as you and I know them with robust spring steel blades and spring temper and then also tensioning and taper grinding are not a 400 years ago thing. So, what do you do when steel is expensive and processing ala disston isn't possible? you put a blade in tension instead.

I have made a saw similar to the one in the picture above - it is too long to rip lumber, but ideal for resawing lumber. It is also between 11 and 12 pounds, again too cumbersome for up and down use vs laying across a board to resaw.

A frame saw of the smaller and lighter type with a smaller blade shown in the original picture would be better for ripping, and the picture isn't unique. One of the first people I saw ripping wood when I first started woodworking (harry strasil) used a saw like the one in the first picture and did so swiftly, though he was demonstrating it in pine in the recording he showed, which makes every saw look fast.

If you can find a four or five TPI carbon steel bandsaw blade with a depth of 1 1/2 inches or so, you'd probably have a good saw of this type. I haven't made one so I don't know ideal dimensions. With the abundance of coarse carpenter saws, I think a resaw the style of the one in the picture above needs to be four feet or it's pretty pointless to have in actual use once the wood is too wide to be productively resaws just alternating arms with a rip carpenter saw. I suspect the ideal length for a saw like you're thinking about for ripping (the lighter, much wider and smaller bladed saw) is probably between 24 and 30 inches of blade length because you will not saw with such a saw with elbows much higher than chin level.

Originally Posted by Simplicity

.......I don’t think that approach would work on a longer cut tho......

Mind you all three guys looked like they could go all day tho, lol..... Cheers Matt.

That was my point, Matt - on a long cut the work just has to lie down....

And yep, these blokes did go all day & what's more they seemed to enjoy themselves immensely doing it. I might've been able to keep up with them for a while when I was 20, but in my 50s all I could do was admire their energy and their ability to slice off boards of even thickness without any lines...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by auscab

This looks like one of those thumb-hole rip saws Ian doesn't it ?
Possibly a couple of Queensland blokes ripping of a bit of figured Maple or Red Cedar for a job?

old_ump.jpg

Earlier again is this one. Not a frame saw. Interesting Aussie picture though by the looks of it.

old01965r.jpg

Ive never used a frame saw for more than a few minutes just to have a try. Ive used a bow saw a little bit for shaping stuff like shaped aprons in one inch thickness timber. They are quite good!

Thank goodness for big old cheap band saws though.

Rob

The first pic looks like a one-man crosscut logging saw that must have been set up for ripping. The second man is using a helper handle, which could normally be re-positioned at the toe when an assistant was to hand.

Simonds Saws and Knives 1912 Catalog one man crosscut 2.jpg

The second pic uses a handle that was typically seen on ice saws:

Simonds Saws and Knives 1912 Catalog ice saw.jpg

Either way I think you need to have had a good breakfast for that type of work!

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Cklett

In this video about German framesaws the saw is indeed used vertically for a long rip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=mPQlGimy6aRd4rq5&v=b3IDDN1kj3U&feature=youtu.be

Right at the beginning.

In my view at least the advantage, that the whole board can be clamped to the bench. It does not stick put high above a vise and vibrates like a lambs tail.


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I've used a frame saw like this doing the same thing, just to try to find something easier than other somethings. I found it pretty miserable because one hand is above the blade and the other one can't really do anything because the bias is to the side of a cut. it'd be nice to have a saw like this with a handle that went past the blade about 6" so that the work would be more two handed, but I've never mocked anything up.

when sawing like the guy is doing in the beginning of the video, it just feels like there is missed potential - you get one tired arm and the other not. if you watch at the beginning, you can see the top of the saw, which is off to the side, flopping around a little bit.

But this type of saw would've been ready to go before long carpenter saws were ever perfected.

I should probably add if you could make a fixture or a frame saw like I describe for ripping - i'll bet there are examples out there with the handle extended beyond the blade, you could really haul some tuchus with both hands involved.

the left hand is stabilizing only, which is hard to do when it's not able to apply any pressure - it's like waiting to catch something that moves around. it's not like the left hand does nothing - without it, the saw can't be steered just with one hand above.

If you do try to figure out how to get the left hand involved in the down-stuff, the saw gets pushed to a cut that's not square.

Obviously, the older frame saw pictures showing square frame saws with guys siting work around that because the blade is in the middle. There's a not infinite amount of board width that can be tolerated with them, though.

I've sawn a lot of wood with a carpenter saw - a whole lot of it sitting with the saw facing toward my crotch (but it never gets there, fortunately!). you sit on the wood, saw similar to the frame saw except hands on handle of a carpenter saw, and as the saw gets too close to you, you stand up for a second, slide the board out another foot or 18 inches and get after it again. But as lazy as possible, you just sort of pop up partially and slide the board forward with a bump.

the key to working by hand is finding the laziest way to do something that doesn't sacrifice control. A whole lot of hand tool operations can be improved if you are in the middle of work and you tell yourself, "i'm going to try to keep the same cadence, and the same work rate, but make it feel easier". You'll find all kinds of things that you're doing that aren't really necessary. Grasping things tight, using elbow flexion where the motion should originate from core and shoulders, etc. guys 250 years ago would've been absolute masters at this to make sure they could continue to work from next month to next decade.

That is some interesting comments. I am planning to explore the German style frame saws more. I need to make a few and am still to source some blades. The frame is made easily.

Here, I did make a sort of robot style frame saw with a saw blade from Dieter Schmidt.



I framed my saw



I might use the same blade for a different frame. Although, this one is 700mm long and I would like to also make one with 600mm and different pitch.


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