Thread: Hand ripsawing insanity

Unfair CK. Now we are all wondering what we are missing out on. And lovely frame saw!

Originally Posted by Cklett

Here is another video with the German framesaw. I think this guy has the modification to the saw arm as D.W. suggested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=APv4Zo0ztOUQWAQu&v=LJsS5ZzeMyE&feature=youtu.be


By the way, it seems to be common enough that we even have a term for that technique. In German we call that "Fausten" or "Fäusteln". But I am not going to put the englisch translation here. I don't want to get in trouble.....

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Yes! Thanks for finding that. Now I want to do it. Notice how much more authority he has with the saw.

Caspar Labarre Beelden Werk.avi - YouTube

He's planing with the chipbreaker near the end.

CK and DW - nice way of getting two arms engaged in ripping while sitting down. Much new for me here , thanks.

Was thinking about twisting of a smaller 25mm blade and think that it might be possible it add spring loaded blade guide, riding on the top of the blade, at the rear of the saw to resist the buckle. Buckle resistance doesn't take much, maybe 2.5% od the twisting load. Then we can all saw like this pair..

RouboFrameSaw01.jpg

Paul, open pits saws, agree on the breakfast

museum-of-early-american-tools-5.jpg

Cheers M

Originally Posted by MartinCH

CK and DW - nice way of getting two arms engaged in ripping while sitting down. Much new for me here , thanks.

Was thinking about twisting of a smaller 25mm blade and think that it might be possible it add spring loaded blade guide, riding on the top of the blade, at the rear of the saw to resist the buckle. Buckle resistance doesn't take much, maybe 2.5% od the twisting load. Then we can all saw like this pair..

RouboFrameSaw01.jpg

Paul, open pits saws, agree on the breakfast

museum-of-early-american-tools-5.jpg

Cheers M

https://i.imgur.com/Wk0Llab.jpg

you may not be surprised to find that I've made (from scratch) one of these frame saws -I made a test saw, which is shown here, hand filed the blade and then made a tensioning system instead of being spring or screw type, it's just sheet metal holding the saw blade and tensioned with two opposing wedges (which allow you to tap the two wedges tighter without unintentionally pushing the saw blade off center).

I can't explain too well why this system is ideal for resawing other than to just say it is - the tension should be constant and you want just a little adjustability so you can sight down the blade and then twist the saw at either end by clamping the saw plate and then aligning both ends. You very quickly find where there's enough tension that when you do that, it doesn't move, but still that it has enough workability that you can, and then steering the saw in the cut is a nuance of sorts, but it's very quickly learned.

That caspar video is a breath of fresh air. 14 years old and only 9000 views and the guy is just doing stuff, cleanly, and well. the way he is sawing is somewhat similar to how I saw sitting with a carpenter saw, though he's leaning a little more and giving it hell at a bit higher of a rate- things you can do when you're in good shape. i could do that for 20 minutes, but I couldn't do it in rotation for four hours - but he is in far better shape than me. I am pleased to say that I've figured out a lot of ways to work by hand productively, and continuously, without having to be in good shape. Being in better shape would probably improve output 15-20% of the time, but there's always a way to make things easier.

I'm fairly sure I still have the rip blade for the largest emmerich rip saw, and this weekend if I have time, I'm motivated now to make a handle extension and give it another try. Why? because there are times when doing this ripping on a long board held over the edge of a bench would be really handy. it's an upright position and very little is wasted. It's just very unrewarding the way it's shown in the first german video - you can tell there is potential there, but not without the extension in the long term.

At some point, I will also make one of the square picture frame style shorter saws to do the sitting rip, but it is somewhat duplicating what the german saw with a hand extension will do, and the way the blade is tensioned on the german saws will eliminate something that may happen in a wider small frame saw for seated ripping - tension bending the ends inward. We leave these saws sitting (mine just against the wall) without tension on them.

someday, I will make a nicer version of my frame saw (i have two, actually, a three and a four footer - there's really not much use for the three footer resawing, but it's too bulky and narrow to repurpose for seated ripping. it's not worth remaking in a nicer version).

my device earlier would not allow me to give a link with a time stamp.
Caspar Labarre Beelden Werk.avi - YouTube

Watch the shaving coming out of the plane. Everything I figured out in isolation, he does. I wonder who taught him this stuff. He's got far more experience 14 years ago in workflow than I have, though. I'm impressed.

I guess because he's not selling zen wu tools plane blades or whatever else, the algorithm doesn't and never did have any desire for him. 9000 views of legitimate work in 10 years, but true that the nuance of what he's doing and how he's doing it would probably be lost on most.

Doing the stuff he's doing without using the chipbreaker, for example, would be intolerable. if this came out in 2010 (I vaguely recall seeing it, but could've been something else), I wouldn't have recognized what the shavings coming out of the plane up and straightened shows.

There's something else he's doing that I do and have seen at least a dozen comments about "no real woodworker doing it". But that comment is always made by someone who has no clue about planing things.

Notice that he is intolerant of a shaving remaining in the way of planing. if you're crashing around in tearout and the shavings don't stay together, it may not make sense to move the shavings out of the way. If you set the chipbreaker, and you're taking very even amounts of material off of an edge or a face of a board, and the plane skips over even part of a shaving, you've just created a lot of unnecessary work.

he deliberately planes (as in not in a rush, not crashing around) and throws off the shavings. it's far faster to actually plane this way - as in it creates progress fast enough to tolerate working entirely by hand.

How refreshing.

thanks for finding the video after i supposed there would be a hand fixture on a frame saw - i'm not surprised that it's already out there, but have no idea how anyone found the video so quickly given what would the search term be? But the demonstration of work itself throughout the video from casually sharpening a sawblade to even deliberate (but not slow) planing, it's just excellent.

Hi David

I agree, glad CK took took the time to find and share this video. Casper is joy to watch at work, not moving fast but each choice is deliberate and seasoned. Its how I imagine the handtool shops of the past looked like...

Cheers M

He's got a more recent video. Jump to 4:12 for a view of the handle.

Thanks raffo.

Now I also see that this saw was made specifically for that type of cut. The first German video I shared, was a standard frame saw where you can rotate the blade as needed. Here the blade orientation is fixed.


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Originally Posted by MartinCH

Hi David

I agree, glad CK took took the time to find and share this video. Casper is joy to watch at work, not moving fast but each choice is deliberate and seasoned. Its how I imagine the handtool shops of the past looked like...

Cheers M

No worries. It helped to be able to follow my folks from the Fatherland in my native tongue [emoji6]

Although Caspar is Dutch, but his video was linked in one of the German forums.

I will have a close look to his work.

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Originally Posted by MartinCH

CK and DW - nice way of getting two arms engaged in ripping while sitting down. Much new for me here , thanks.

Was thinking about twisting of a smaller 25mm blade and think that it might be possible it add spring loaded blade guide, riding on the top of the blade, at the rear of the saw to resist the buckle. Buckle resistance doesn't take much, maybe 2.5% od the twisting load. Then we can all saw like this pair..

RouboFrameSaw01.jpg

Paul, open pits saws, agree on the breakfast

museum-of-early-american-tools-5.jpg

Cheers M

there are demonstrations of a pitsaw of that type from williamsburg here in the states. I haven't seen a frame pitsaw. since the pitsaw is used vertically with someone pulling at the bottom, maybe it didn't need to have the same fitness in terms of being made vs. a carpenters saw.

Of the men sawing thin boards there is also a long video from williamsburg showing harpsichord making. In a very short excerpt, George Wilson (who some of us know, for a short period, he would post on the forums in the US before he tired of people asking for advice and not taking it) is sawing veneers with another person who worked as a journeyman instrument maker at williamsburg. Colonial Williamsburg Instrument Making -P1- Spinet and Violin - YouTube

It is difficult to use a small toothed saw that would cut veneers like this as a one-man sawyer. If frame sawing alone, the key to the whole thing working well is steering. Fine toothed saws don't steer well and really need someone viewing the cut on each side to not get to the point that they need steering, and the thinner laminations wouldn't tolerate the manipulation (leverage) from steering the larger saw.

These veneer saws also look lighter built. It would be fun to do this, but my son is 10 and not interested in the shop at this point, at let's just say if wife was in the shop (which she has a serious distaste for in the first place), having her run one end of the saw would be worse than having no second person.

Hi All did short test with a small turning saw that I have. Intial impressions is that this two handed style provides good good control and feels easier. My turning saw isn't very good at this - blade narrow and what's to twist but the downward cutting stroke is very powerul and the wide set grip provides good control for keeping the cut square.

Early days yet but if one had a dedicated two hand frame ripping saw and a Disston D8 ripping saw I suspect many would prefer the frame ripsaw.

Originally Posted by MartinCH

Hi All did short test with a small turning saw that I have. Intial impressions is that this two handed style provides good good control and feels easier. My turning saw isn't very good at this - blade narrow and what's to twist but the downward cutting stroke is very powerul and the wide set grip provides good control for keeping the cut square.

Early days yet but if one had a dedicated two hand frame ripping saw and a Disston D8 ripping saw I suspect many would prefer the frame ripsaw.

next thing to do is take the operation to a similar physical form with the disston saw. the only rub is...the rub. raking the disston saw from the handle puts your hands ahead of the blade and I typically cut with my hands near the bottom of the handle so that the position is less aggressive and the cut doesn't stop abruptly at the end (that will soak the energy out of you - it's sneaky, anything that abruptly stops a cut will just drain your batteries without communicating that it is doing so).

I do very little dimesioning from rough with a disston saw using one hand unless the cut is short or the item small (not usually the case) like breaking down a turning blank to make handles or something. Especially in 2500+ hardness woods that can be that level or 1000 higher from that. the name of the game with those is a little different because they can really grab saw teeth directly across the straws.