Thread: Which hand saws to buy first?

Dozuki.

Makes any person who can't use a handsaw look like a pro.

I have several saws, but once I tried a dozuki it opened my eyes to why they've been in use for eons. My next saw purchase will be a Kataba. Pulling to cut for me makes so much more sense and it's soo easy.

Hi Dave,
it all comes down to what you are willing to spend.
for me I'd get 1 pair of carcass saws from any of these:
Carcass Saws have approx. 2 1/2" blade depth
Veritas Carcass saws are hard to beat for Value @ &$120 pair + postage
Adria Small Tenon Saws @ $ 400 pair + postage from HNT Gordon ($300 pair from Adria + postage)
Wenzloff Carcass Saws @ $330 pair + postage
or Wenzloff Small Tenon Saws have 3" depth 14" blade length @ $370 pair

I'd make the third saw
Wenzloff Halfback from Lee Valley

Of course you could save some $ by buying the Wenzloff kits, get them to set and sharpen them and spend a few hours shaping and finishing the handles to fit you like a glove. Easy for you my friend. Or try Waldo's recommendation. Even the cheap 265 from Bunnings can leave a lovely finish if you take it easy with the hardwood. If you have to go through the learning curve with handsaws then the Jap. Saws are worth a try...just remenber to be light on the touch or it will cost you.
All the best
Kevin

Waldo, I've used a few Japanese saws and not really liked them. I purchased one of the cheap 265's that Kev's talking about for ripping up some flooring before I have a circular saw and managed to destroy it in a matter of minutes. I'm a little too ham-firsted for this gear I think. Just not my cup-o-tea.

Thanks Kev. The Veritas saws look like exceptional value. I feel I will be calling on you again after some more reading.

No worries.

I don't like tea, I prefer coffee.

Dave - it's pretty hard to advise someone what's 'best' unless you have a very good idea of what you'll be using the saws for, but Kevin's suggestions are certainly a good starting point.

Just a couple of thoughts on saws generally:
I think a lot of folk might expect too much of a handsaw, at times, particularly if they are used to a decent tablesaw, with accurate crosscutting setup and a really good blade, which can make cuts that are much more accurate and smooth than any hand saw can do. Handsaws, even well-sharpened ones always make a bit of a ragged cut, which is why we traditionally clean up after them with shooting boards, shoulder planes & chisels, etc. So why use handsaws at all? Well, of course apart from the fact that some galoots just prefer hand-tools, there are delicate jobs that are best done with small saws. Some tasks, such as the angled cuts for dovetails are too much bother to set up on tablesaws (though some folk do it!) and in general, handsaws are so much quicker when just a few cuts are required than mucking about setting up machines, so they really are essential tools, to me. And kept sharp & in good order, they are very efficient.

When selecting saws to make a particular cut, I'm mindful of two requirements. For quickest cutting, I select a saw that is as coarse as the job will allow (i.e. at least 4 or 5 teeth in the cut, if possible). The large gullets carry more sawdust, allowing the teeth to cut for the full stroke. However, I may want the cut to be as clean as possible, with minimun tear-out on exit (for example, if I am going to join the piece off the saw), in which case I will select finer teeth. So you compromise as required.

So if you end up liking hand saws, and do a range of jobs, you will undoubtedly end up wanting a range of saw sizes and different tooth pitches. The exact sizes of saw & tooth pitches are matters of personal choice to some extent. As you may know, I've gone a bit beserk making saws lately, so I have a fairly wide range of saws to choose from, but there are a few saws that I use all the time. I tend to like saws on the smaller end of each range, so if you are a big bloke, with large fists, scale up accordingly, but FWIW, here are my favourites:
1) a 350mm 'halfback', 10 tpi crosscut. This is the best discovery of my saw-making exploits - don't know how I lived without it. It excels at general roughing out work, but is managable enough that I can do quite fine work if I'm too lazy to reach for:

2) A 250mm, 15 tpi crosscut. The handle on this saw is at the perfect angle for use on a bench-hook. The perfect saw for fine cuts on pieces, say, 20-50mm wide.

3) A Tyzack 200mm saw which I rehandled many years ago, and also recut the teeth to 15 tpi rip. This is my 'go to' dovetailing saw.

4) A 220mm 18 tpi crosscut for all fine cuts up to 30mm or so wide. This little saw has been with me for more than 30 years, but I recently put a new brass back & handle on it. It's the saw I reach for for any fine, accurate crosscutting such as dovetail shoulders, etc.

5) A 300mm 10 tpi rip for tenon cheeks and any rip cuts on wider pieces than the dovetail saw can handle efficiently.

I have quite a few other saws, but these are the ones that get used every day I'm in the shed. As I said, choosing saws is a very personal matter, so I'm putting these up only to show what works best for me.....

Cheers

Thanks for all your insights Ian. I think the main reason I want to at least explore hand saws is because each time I've moved from using a power tool to a hand tool for the same job I've been more satisfied with the results. I confess that I've been known to misused a machine and ruin a peice, and using hand tools I can sneak up on my markings. Not to mention the tactility of the process.

I think I really want to start with saws I can use for cutting tenons and carcass work. I'm thinking a rip cut tenon saw perhaps 10-12tpi and a cross-cut carcas saw with 12-13tpi as a starting point. What say you?

Originally Posted by kman-oz

......I think I really want to start with saws I can use for cutting tenons and carcass work. I'm thinking a rip cut tenon saw perhaps 10-12tpi and a cross-cut carcas saw with 12-13tpi as a starting point. What say you?

Yep, an excellent start-point, Dave. Larger teeth are much more managable to begin with, so I recommend starting out with them. You may want some finer saws later, but these will always be useful tools for the tasks you mention. I have just taken possession of a bunch of high-quality needle files, and am about to try my hand at my first 20 tpi plus set of fangs.....

And I agree that one of the main advantages of hand tools is that they are more conducive to 'sneaking-up' on a perfect fit. They are also quieter, and encourage a more 'contemplative' approach as Derek says.

But I do like burning a few electrons when it comes to grunt work....

Cheers,

Good, that settles that I reckon. Thanks Ian.

I visited Kev yesterday to try my hand at a few of his collection, which was a vastly worth while experience; firstly because I got to have a proper catchup with Kev, but secondly because it enforced by thinking on why I haven't been very successful with hand saws. I learned two important truths yesterday, a) my handsaw technique sucks, and b) my saw is holding me back terribly! Applying just a couple of the things I already know to a saw that is well tuned produced an infinitely better outcome that I can at home.

I also learned that you don't have to have a course set of teeth to produce a fairly quick cut on a wide board. I was cross-cutting a 5" board with a 14tpi carcass saw with no real effort at all. What a revelation!

So, in conclusion I think I'll go for a rip cut tenon saw and cross-cut carcass saw and when I know what I'm doing I might have a go at re-habbing the S&J. Speaking of the S&J, I was having a closer look at it on Thursday and discovered that it has both rip cut and cross cut teeth in a three tooth pattern... bizarre, no? It goes -> cross-cut set left, rip-cut no set, cross-cut set right, repeat. Little wonder it doesn't do any one job well at all.

It was great to have a chin wag and a brew with you kman. I'm glad you had fun too. I don't think your hand saw teachnique needs that much work at all and as for your current saw holding you back, well....I'm sure that you will sort it in the fullness of time.
All the best
Kevin

I have a lot of saws but my last order was to Bad Axe Saws in the US, he talyor makes them to suit you and the way you work etc. I have a 16" RIP Tenon that should be in any day now. Price is similar to all the good makes. Bad Axe Tool Works - Services and Tools for the Discriminating Woodworker
My saw list would go
Dozuki or flush cut pull saw, a nice 24 - 26" RIP handsaw around 8 tpi, and a 14" Tenon Rip/crosscut combo. That would set you up for starters. Then you can spend a lot more when you're ready.

It think the bug may be contagious Kev.

After seeing your saws and reading a few articles and guides I'm gonna' give the saw making thing a go I reckon. I doesn't look too difficult (famous last words?). So here's what's in my list from the Wenzloff site:

Tenon Saw:
- 3 x 1/2" brass nut/bolt sets
- 1/4" x 1" brass back, slotted (14" long)
- 4" x 14" x 0.025" saw plate
- Set and sharpened 12ppi rip-cut

Carcass Saw:
- 2 x 1/2" brass nut/bolt sets
- 1/4" x 3/4" brass back, slotted (12" long)
- 2 1/2" x 12" x 0.020" saw plate
- Set and sharpened 14ppi cross-cut

I'm happy to practice sharpening on the S&J, but I think I'll leave the cutting and setting to someone else for now. I made have to drop in and borrow one of your saws to cut the slots though.

Ian, I very much like your saw hand profiles, do you have templates for them?

Yes, well you have been warned. I'm sure that you will do a great job and then you will do some more. Feel free to pop in any time.
Happy saw month
Kevin

Originally Posted by kman-oz

.....
Ian, I very much like your saw hand profiles, do you have templates for them?

Hi Dave - I have a drawer-full of templates! I have been making them up as I went along, this last year or so, but I started with two handles as my guide. One is from a pattern I pulled off the web a long time ago. If you print out the PDF on standard A4, it should come full size (the squares are 1/4", so you can check it). The other was the first rehandle job I did on my Tyzack saw about 30 years ago. This is from a tracing I made off an old Disston. The Disston had a closed handle, & I wanted an open one, so I just left out the little joiney-bit.

It was fortuitous that I started with these two. The Tyzack grip is more 'vertical' than the other, and those grip angles make the saws feel very different in use. The more upright grip on the Tyzack makes it very comfy to use with my forearm roughly parallel to the bench. That is a very good thing, because this is my main dovetail saw, and so I am most often sawing well above bench height. The other grip is lifted more towards horizontal, so is more comfy to use with forearm angled down a bit. This is good on a saw which is most often used with a bench hook, or cutting something held at vise level. (Pics for comparison).

Of course, you can & do use them at different angles by twisting your wrist a bit, but if you get the angles right for the most common usage, it just makes the saws vey comfy & intuitive to hold. That improves the accuracy of your sawing, as well as comfort.

Kevin seems to be amassing quite a few saws there, so it would be a good idea to heft a few with different handles to see which angles suit you best. I have noted that the LN saws all seem to come with the same grip angle, and it looks to be very close to the angle of the one on the PDF. Seems a bit slack for high-end saws meant for different purposes.....

Anyway, once you figure out what grip angles you want, you can fiddle a bit with the length of the grip itself, so that the top & bottom horns fit snugly across your palm - not too tightly, ot it can be irritating, too loose is better than too tight. But when you get it right, it will fit you like a glove. For some inspiration on handle profiles, take a look at RayG's site:
Open Handle Templates - Saws Seen - Saw Scene - Saws I've Seen
Remember too, that the grip shouldn't project too far below the tooth line or it gets in the way - another reason the 'kicked-up' grip works well on a bench hook.

And before you tear into that precious bit of Ring Gidgee or whatever you want your heirloom to have, make a couple of mock-ups out of scrap - rough-fit the blade & try it for comfort (I think Kevin will strongly advise likewise). The mock-up needn't be fine-finished - just rasp the handle close to the finished profile & it will give you a very good idea of the feel. It will also give you a bit of practice at slitting the handle and cutting out the extra bit for the spine. I usually do the blade slot with a saw of the same plate thickness & a very fine set, which produces an easy sliding fit which the saw bolts can easily take up to put firm pressure on the plate. I always do the slot first - mark it out heavily with the marking gauge, then saw carefully from alternate sides, keeping it as neat & straight as possible. Then set the spine on the saw, slip it into the slot, & mark the edges for the spine recess directly off it, which should result in a perfect fit. A few months ago, I made myself a couple of small keyhole type saws out of scraps of saw plate. These have reversed teeth on a round-ended blade, which I use to deepen the slot internally. That way I can now make the blade fit very neatly without having to extend the slot externally - just a flourish, it doesn't matter a hoot, mechanically, if the slot is a bit longer than necessary.

I've made it sound a bit complicated, but it's not, just trying to point you at the details that will make the difference between ok & excellent. I reckon starting with the Wenzloff kits is a great way to go. You can't go wrong, really, as you have first class hardware, and even if you make a hash of your first tries at handles, you will eventually get it right, and end up with custom saws that look spiffy and work superbly.

Cheers and good luck - I'm sure you'll keep us informed of progress.

PS - Forgot to say that the handle on the carcase saw is pretty much straight off the PDF pattern.....

Originally Posted by IanW

I wanted an open one, so I just left out the little joiney-bit.

Do you mean the lambs tongue?

Thanks for the template, that will be a big help. I don't suppose you have the closed handle template too? I'll like to do a closed handle on the bigger tenon saw.