Thread: What hand saws to buy?

Learn to sharpen saws and then start hunting old ones at garage sales, flea markets etc.

The new veritas backsaws are very good and cheaper than the Lie Nielsen saws. Well constructed, cut cleanly and can be sharpened.

If I were buying a new handsaw I'd probably go Bahco over Irwin or Stanley, but, not having bought a new saw I'm not really much help. I think I'd probably avoid Bahco's u-beaut interchangeable blade and swish handle thing however. Handle is really heavy. Looks flash and feels ok in the hand but it's not light.

Carbatec sell Pax saws too. They have handsaws and back saws in their range, not just the gents saw. They're supposed to be ok, though I've never handled one so I couldn't say for sure.

If the gents saw is a bit unstable why not make a new handle or shave the existing one down to an oval shape? That might help.

Got money? Lie Nielsen, Mike Wenzloff, Bad Axe...etc.

Be careful. You are now on a very slippery slope..!

Cheers,
Virg.

I have the Veritas carcass pair. I had no saws besides a coping saw and was looking for good general purpose hand saws. I'm really happy with the LV pair and will add a dovetail when I can. I am also on the lookout for a good rip panel saw and maybe a larger tennon saw.

Originally Posted by Tools4Me

I've been looking around and trying to learn the ins and outs of saws. From what I understand of how they work and what I want to use them for, I think I need a 12" cross cut and a 14" rip (and eventaully a dovetail and panel saw, and then a ...?).

at least a couple of Japanese pull saws - these are pretty darned useful saws

I have three saws in use: an Adria dovetail saw, Spear and Jackson tenon saw and a modern plastic handled Spear and Jackson "Predator" 22 inch saw.

All three are great - especially the Predator. I am really impressed with this saw. It was less than $30 from the local big hardware store.

The tenon saw I've had since I really knew what it was. I had it sharpened a few years ago through Carbatec and it is still nice and sharp.

The Adria saw is nice. It seems a very delicate saw. It does its job but it is so pretty I'm scared to use it as robustly as I use my other tools.

Another little saw I find useful is my flexible flush cut saw that cuts on the pull stroke. Great for flush cuts and cutting in box locks.

Thanks for the responses. Personally I don't like the look of the Veritas saws. I have a pile of Veritas tools but I can't bring myself to like their saws. And even though I have a number of Japanese chisels (which operate like lasers and I'd highly recommend) my preference is for the traditional western saw style and I don't want any plastic.

I've looked at most of the higher end saws - lots of loveliness there. I'm just a bit confused by the styles to get - length, depth, teeth per inch, rake etc. And since I'm not going to be able to test-drive all/any of the options, some opinons from those who already have would be appreciated.

Originally Posted by Tools4Me

......I have a pile of Veritas tools but I can't bring myself to like their saws. And even though I have a number of Japanese chisels (which operate like lasers and I'd highly recommend) my preference is for the traditional western saw style and I don't want any plastic...

T4M - can't help but agree on the fugliness of the LV saws, but they ARE excellent saws, and more bang for the buck than some of the more traditional (& more aesthetic!) offerings. Trouble with all saws, fancy or otherwise, is that they soon become dull if used regularly, and the first sharpening makes 'em all equal. I've handled one or two saws in my time, and have not noticed a skerrick of difference in the metal, between cheap blades like on your gents' saw and the multi-hundred dollar jobs. I would guess that's a reflection of the necessity to keep the metal file-able, so you can't go much harder than around R55 or so, is my estimate.

Sizes of saws is a very personal choice. Some of it boils down to the length of your arm & what makes for a comfortable stroke, plus how much 'heft' you like in a tool. Unfortunately, you need to use a saw for a while to see if it really suits your style - just waving it round in the air in the shop or at the market doesn't tell you the full story. There is this thing called "balance", most of which boils down to shape & angle of the grip, IMO, but it makes a big difference to how the saw works for you. Part of your problem with driving your knife-handled saw comes down to the angle of your wrist during cutting. You can cut perfectly straight & well with a round-handled saw, but there is a very limited range where it sits 'naturally' in your hand, so you have to have the work at just the right height.

Equally important as overall size are tooth pitch & profile, and I think you are on the right track wanting a coarser pitch on your bigger saws. Saws work best when there are enough teeth riding on the wood to give a relatively smooth cut, and not excessive bite, but the teeth also need to be able to hold the sawdust as it is created, or they will start riding up & not cut efficiently, so the bigger the better is a rough mantra. Recommendations vary, but it is usually suggested to have somewhere in the vicinity of 6 teeth in the cut. How many is too many depends on a lot of factors, but perhaps the main deciders are the wood (softer woods cut more easily & so fill quicker) and the profile of the teeth, which determines how hard they 'bite'.

If it all sounds too complicated, it isn't in practice. You soon learn which saws do any particular job best for you. I do mostly cabinetry (tables, chairs, bookcases, desks, etc) and smaller stuff, and my needs are well catered for by a set of larger (26") saws (5 & 7 tpi rip, and 10 & 8 crosscuts) and 5 'back' saws that I use constantly. These are: a 10 tpi crosscut 'halfback' saw 450mm blade, a 300mm 10 tpi rip, a 250mm 15 tpi crosscut, a 220mm 15 tpi, thin-blade rip (my favourite 'dovetailer') and a little 220mm, 18 tpi crosscut. I have others, but these cover al my day to day requirements. I am well & truly familiar with my saws, & just reach for the saw I know will do best whatever job is in hand. While this set works for me, it is unlikely to suit more than 10% of other people, even those doing much the same range of work. I hypothesise that the reason small saws were offered in so many sizes 100 years ago was a reflection of how much people's tastes vary when it comes to small saws. You could buy the same tooth pitch & pattern in at least 3 or 4 or more lengths for every style of saw.....

One way to help solve your current dilema might be to buy a kit or two from Wenzloff & make your own - no special tools required, though a couple of decent rasps make handle-sculpting a lot easier (I thought I saw a thread on this some time back, but a search didn't turn anything up). Like building a plane, it will maake you think about each component part and not only help your understanding of the tool, but you end up with a superb tool for a very much more reasonable cost.

But be warned if you go that route - saw making is a very seductive side-track (DAMHIK! )

Cheers,

Thanks for the response Ian. It's as I thought - no easy answer Thank gawd for internet research

You are right, there is no easy answer. It really depends on what you want to use the saw for. I certainly would not use a good saw for knocking down construction grade lumber but I also would not use a cheap saw for fine woodworking. I have had a couple of saws from Sears with nasty looking impulse hardened teeth that cut really. Downside is that once they are dull, they are history.

History indeed. That is one of the reasons I can't buy them. My conscience can't allow my to by a new thing that will ultimately become rubbish and go to land fill when I know there is a perfectly good second hand item out there that hasn't been used to its full potential yet. That's one of the reason why I am so keen on old tools.

Cheers,
Virg.

Originally Posted by Virgil

History indeed. That is one of the reasons I can't buy them. My conscience can't allow my to by a new thing that will ultimately become rubbish and go to land fill when I know there is a perfectly good second hand item out there that hasn't been used to its full potential yet. That's one of the reason why I am so keen on old tools.

Cheers,
Virg.

Virg, it's defintely a weird place we've got to, with throwaway saws. You can subvert the system by cutting off the hardened teeth (the hardening only goes to about a mm past the gullets) and sinking a new set of fangs. The metal beyond the hardening is just plain old saw plate. But p'raps you need to be a bit weird, like me, to do that.....

Cheers,

Tools4me, listen to the sage advice of Virgil. But before you race off to the markets and garage sales, know what you need to cut. Cutting mdf is a bloody long way from ripping down long lengths of hardwood; very very differing materials.

A builder friend of mine allows for the purchase of one cheapish 8pointer on every job he does. He does not know how to sharpen these things nor can he be bothered. I can and used to regularly but not for years now. On the coarser saws, 8 point and upwards, it's not all that hard once you know the fundamentals. Nowdays, the information is at at your fingertips. People are giving away sawsets today because no-one can use them yet they are soooooo easy to use.

Go get yourself a flat file, a sawset, a 3 cornered file and learn to use them in that order. A little know how and you'll be off like a shot.

Yeah I don't know about this sharpening thing. I've got well enough tools that need constant attention on stones and I've limited time to spend in the shed. SWTSMBO (she who thinks she must be obeyed) gets a certain look on her face if I visit too often or too long. I need to spend the time I've got in the man-cave actually cutting wood. I like nice tools but...

I am lacking some saws too. I probably have enough cross-cut saws but no rip saws. A rip tenon saw would perhaps be enough.

Originally Posted by IanW

...

One way to help solve your current dilema might be to buy a kit or two from Wenzloff & make your own - no special tools required, though a couple of decent rasps make handle-sculpting a lot easier (I thought I saw a thread on this some time back, but a search didn't turn anything up). Like building a plane, it will maake you think about each component part and not only help your understanding of the tool, but you end up with a superb tool for a very much more reasonable cost.

But be warned if you go that route - saw making is a very seductive side-track (DAMHIK! )
Cheers,

Making a saw is on my long gunnado list, but unfortunately there are quite a few things ahead of it and progress is slow. I have thought about the Wenzloff kits and that is a possible but perhaps expensive way to go. If I were to start from scratch, there are few things that so far I don't know how to manage. I would be happy to have a go at shaping and sharpening the teeth and making a handle (except I would probably want to buy another rasp) but I would not know where to source the steel and the screws and how to fold or slot the back with tools I have available.

Cheers, Tony

Originally Posted by tonyw

........If I were to start from scratch, there are few things that so far I don't know how to manage. I would be happy to have a go at shaping and sharpening the teeth and making a handle (except I would probably want to buy another rasp) but I would not know where to source the steel and the screws and how to fold or slot the back with tools I have available.

Hi Tony,

Without doubt, the most econonical way to get a decent saw is to look out for a nice oldie, as has been suggested. Making a saw is more about self-gratification than economics. If you are a tool-making tragic like me, the urge is irresistable, but sensible folk are probably best-advised to avoid it.

Wenzloffs make it pretty easy to start at any level you choose. You can just buy the basic material (steel, back, & screws) or have them do some of the preparatory work, Their prices for steel & screws are quite reasonable, I reckon. For anyone who isn't confident about their ability to file a set of teeth from scratch, having them do the teeth is probably worth the extra. I chickened out & had a saw sharpening place cut the first couple for me. They charged me $10 each to cut 15 tpi on a couple of 250mm blades (no set or sharpening), which wasn't too bad. I've since learnt that cutting the teeth is the easy part, but we all have to start somewhere. Making a really good handle & fitting it well are probably the most demanding parts of the build process ( a decent rasp makes a big difference, alright), and sharpening & setting take a while to get the hang of, but it's all good fun.

The brass back is probably the biggest obstacle for a home builder with limited gear. Folding is out of the question unless you can find some soft brass, which I have never been able to do. The typical 380 machinable brass sold by most merchants is much too brittle to fold. So for that reason, & because I thought I would end up with a more accurate end-product, I went the slotting route. The setup cost was around $30 for a blade & arbor from McJing, plus a bit of time & some hardware store bolts for a jig for the drill press. A length of suitable brass will set you back about $12-15 (the stuff seems to go up in price every week!), depending on what size you are making. I've ended up slotting way more backs than I ever intended, so my outlay is well & truly justified, but if you are only intending to make a saw or two, buying a back ready to go is probably the way to go.

I see you are a Brisbane lad, so will you be attending the "Hand tool event" at Lazarides this year? Gareth asked me if I'd like to come along & demonstrate saw-making at this year's bash, & I said I would. I'm no Wenzloff, but I can show what I've learnt about making saws, and perhaps encourage a few like yourself who are toying with the idea to give it a go.....

Cheers,