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Thread: Help with a Monster Required
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7th June 2015, 06:33 PM #1
Help with a Monster Required
I have been preparing a batch of saws for sale and amongst them was this...eh monster. It truly is one of the largest handsaws I have restored.
I have to state at the outset that I will be putting it up for sale, but that is why I require some help on identification.
It just stood out because of it's sheer size, but with a Warranted Superior medallion and no etch it's origins are unclear. Initially, I just fiddled with it and then it became apparent that it was worth some effort despite the saw plate being either completely black or rusted.
Warranted Superior 28inch with nib 004.jpgWarranted Superior 28inch with nib 005.jpgWarranted Superior 28inch with nib 006.jpgWarranted Superior 28inch with nib 007.jpgWarranted Superior 28inch with nib 010.jpgWarranted Superior 28inch with nib 011.jpg
The eagle looks a little Disston orientated. The nib probably dates the saw as pre WW1 particularly combined with the handle sitting proud of the saw plate.
I don't think the saw had ever been sharpened. It is a 28" saw and 7 5/8" deep at the heel. I took one sweep with the jointing file and every tooth has a bright spot on it so it may not have even been used. I sharpened it and it cut sweetly but bound very slightly: A tad more set (measured with the hind leg off a mosquito) and it is a "little" ripper.
The reason I put some effort into a WS saw apart from the immediate attraction of the sheer size was two fold: Firstly the taper on the saw is extreme: 036" down to .018" (actually at the top of the toe it was.014"!). The cheap end of the market often had no taper, but this saw has more taper than the majority of premium models: Secondly it has a beautiful ring to it when struck. In fact I have two Disston No.12s to which I compared it. It stacked up well.
Back to the identification:The eagle featured on the medallion does not look quite like the Disston models. However, I don't pretend to be an expert on Disston saws so I am hoping somebody can shed a little light on this one. Otherwise it will be a "no name" brand.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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7th June 2015 06:33 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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8th June 2015, 07:44 AM #2
Don't be down on the 'WS', man
Do you think either of the handle or saw-nuts might not be original? Has the handle been off? Is it beech or apple?
Eagle says american ... but you already know that. I think the great majority of hardware-store saws had WS medallions (individual stores with their own etch) and some of those saws are really good quality.
I have a Disston #107 (cheap end) that sounds like a #12 ... I think it is really under-appreciated the quality of product that was being churned out back then.
I'm not sure how many saws would have been made without any taper ... my assumption is that they were all set up for production anyway, so ...
In any case, a saw like that (yours) made today would cost $300 or $400+++.
Hope it gets (another) good home.
Cheers,
Paul
Then again ... that handle with the extra bit of inside curve is right for a big rip saw.
... I'm thinking #7 or #107 ... with either the medallion changed for some reason ... or a hardware store etch that has worn off.
Apple handle -> #8 ... ?
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8th June 2015, 09:52 AM #3
Paul
All of your suggestions are quite possible.
I quite understand and indeed accept your comment on WS saws. In fact this saw verifies exactly what you have said.
At one stage I purchased a number of bare saw plates (no handles) and many have no identifying etch. Quite a few have no taper or at least nothing worth mentioning so they are immediately discarded and consigned to be scrapers or portable support for my magnetic light.
Just getting back to the monster in question with a little more information, I forgot to mention that it has progressive teeth. It starts at 7ppi, then 6ppi before reaching the 5 1/2ppi stamped on the plate.
Then last night I was reading up a little on the WS medallions and remembered that Simonds had replacement medallions in their catalogue, but only WS. Unfortunately the picture is taken at a slightly oblique angle and the top of the medallion is only barely visible. However, I can see enough that it has the eagle and what looks exactly like the shield with horizontal lines.
My scanner will not reproduce the picture, but I will try the work scanner tonight. I will be interested to see what you and any others think. Having said all that, it doesn't quite fit the Simonds line up. Their secondary lines had the Bay State name and medallion. The third level saws went under a variety of names and from the catalogues it looks as though they had WS medallions, but it is not clear (typical Simonds) and to date I have only been able to track down one of these third level saws, which has no medallion at all.
It is surprising that no etch was visible (I didn't rub it away; There was nothing evident; Zilch) and I just can't see such a refined saw (taper, progressive tooth and yes, apple handle) being at the tail end of the model line up.
A likely explanation is that it is a hardware store model as you suggested and the fact it has an apple handle fits that side of things. I have seen it stated that almost all saws of the era were made in the factories of Disston, Atkins, Simonds and Bishop. So if the medallion was a Simonds WS that would be another explanation.
I would dearly love it to be a Simonds: Then I can keep it !
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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8th June 2015, 12:21 PM #4SENIOR MEMBER
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Hello Paul,
your "monster" saw certainly is different to what we normally see about the place.
28", progressive pitch of 7-6-51/2, extreme taper, apple handle, w.s medallion, no etch.
My thoughts on this saw are, that it could have been a special order of a Disston no. 7 rip saw,
(is yours filled as a rip saw?)
as you probable know, they had a 28" straight back with a decorative nib, but had a beech handle.
Your saw looks just like a 1920's Disston no. 7. but with the above characteristics and being ordered
here in Australia it would only be given a W.S. medallion, and no etch.
It's a good looking saw, and if it were in my till it would be staying.
Graham.
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8th June 2015, 03:19 PM #5
Graham
The saw came from the States so that may alter some of your assumptions. It was filed rip and I believe (but can't be categorically certain) that it was the factory sharpening as it was still perfect.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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8th June 2015, 09:53 PM #6
Is the ppi mark still in the corner? I'm guessing yes? a look at the "font" of that would be of some interest.
I laid hands on a similar example that might "explain" the lack of branding ...
It's also 28", WS, (edited)[beech handle I think - very smooth], maybe a touch earlier with the small-headed bolts ... different eagle ...
You can see the difference between your rip-enabling grip vs "normal" (even tho' this is also a long ripsaw)
20150608_111705 (Medium).jpg 20150608_111729 (Medium).jpg
but it has a bit of the hardware store etch left ... and it is up 'frontish' where eg a Disston etch might normally be found.
I think this photo shows how it could easily be lost with use and a bit more time ...
20150608_111824 (Medium).jpg
In person it's a bit easier to read 'Extra London', 'Spring Steel', 'DM Wills', and 'Warranted'
20150608_111829 (Medium).jpg 20150608_111906 (Medium).jpg
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8th June 2015, 11:44 PM #7
Paul
Thanks for that comparison.
The strange thing is that my WS saw has obviously had almost no use. So where the hell did the etch go? It can hardly have worn off!
I did notice with your saw that the handle is much more intricate ahead of the top horn. I guess that is what you mean by the "rip enabling" grip on my saw.
Incidentally, I was measuring up the teeth to pass on the specifications and in fact there are, starting from the toe, 2" of 7ppi, 4" of 6 1/2ppi, 1" of 6ppi before going to the full 5 1/2 ppi (which is stamped on the heel.) I do have a pic of the stamp but I see that it was cut off in the original pix. I will post at a later date.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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9th June 2015, 12:50 AM #8GOLD MEMBER
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Interesting saw.
What do the nuts look like on the other side?
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9th June 2015, 02:03 AM #9
More pix tomorrow to answer questions.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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9th June 2015, 08:00 AM #10
It's mentioned, I think, somewhere on the Disstonian website ... only on 26" (??) and 28"+ ripsaws ...
The "rip-grip" curls over a bit more to give thumb-space to the second hand.
These two ...
vs
... and the smooth scoop on the top instead of a "beak/nib" like my one has also helps for the second hand.
Cuts costs too no doubt ... and so that feature became blander over time.
Cheers,
Paul
Ah ... on this page ... http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/7page.html
And incidentally ... same page shows #7's with a nib up to 1927.
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9th June 2015, 09:18 AM #11
Thanks Paul
I hadn't twigged that the No.7 retained a nib so late.
Here are some more pix:
Warranted Superior 28inch with nib 020.jpgWarranted Superior 28inch with nib 015.jpg
Pic of the Simonds WS medallion tonight.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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9th June 2015, 11:35 AM #12
Thanks. I don't know anything from the ppi writing ... but still interested.
BTW I forgot to say that the WILLS/WILLIS saw I posted isn't resonant. It's a pretty solid thunker without a lively sound.
Cheers,
Paul
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9th June 2015, 08:37 PM #13
I have been researching a little and have found the following examples with a similar WS medallion:
W.Stevens:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/...Superior-1.asp
This is a good reference and my medallion features under the WS section, but alas, no information.
http://lumberjocks.com/summerfi/blog/39861
I am trying to load an enlarged version of the medallion featured in one of my Simonds catalogues, but the PDF file has so far beaten me at each turn. Still working on it.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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9th June 2015, 09:00 PM #14
I have all but given up. Also on close inspection the shield on the breast of the eagle looks the same, but the wings are spread and not hunched as in my saw . In fact none of the poses I have seen replicate my saw.
If you can enlarge the scan below, you may be able to see some of the design on the Simonds medallion.
Regards
Paul
PS: That would be right. I have inserted it three times and none of them open. Help!
PPS:
I may have spoken in haste. It came up at the bottom of the page and I could enlarge the picture satisfactorily.
Simonds WS Medallion.pdfSimonds WS Medallion.pdfSimonds WS Medallion.pdfBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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9th June 2015, 09:56 PM #15
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