Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 47
  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    237

    Default

    I picked up a couple of blocks of Gidgee up at the Lost trades Fair. That stuff felt like a chunk of steel!

  2. # ADS
    Google Adsense Advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Posts
    Many





     
  3. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Melbourne, Vic, Australia
    Posts
    1,255

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lewisc View Post
    I picked up a couple of blocks of Gidgee up at the Lost trades Fair. That stuff felt like a chunk of steel!
    Yup! I was looking at, and nearly bought one of those blocks as well; I plan to make a dovetail plane soon and figured if it's good enough for Terry (HNT)... but I was thinking "man it's going to be tough working that stuff!".

  4. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Brisbane (western suburbs)
    Age
    77
    Posts
    12,093

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DomAU View Post
    ...... I have a block of gidgee that I'm reluctant to even try an edge tool on.....
    Dom, you may get a pleasant surprise when you finally do take a plane to your bit of Gidgee. Like most woods, it's quite variable, and while some pieces are equivalent to cast iron on the Janka scale, about half of what's been through my hands planed relatively easily. That's relatively, you understand, I'm not likening it to Qld Maple by any means! It's a bit of a blade duller, as you'd expect, but harder blades will keep making shavings for a reasonable amount of time between trips to the stones.

    Round where I live, it's the darned Eucalypts like Blue gum (or Forest Red Gum if you're from points south) and Ironbark that give both me & my blades a very hard time....

    Cheers,
    IW

  5. #34
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    237

    Default

    So a month later, after trying to decipher, decode and search through a bunch of info, I picked up a Veritas BUS today. I think it's a good choice and time will tell. It has a nice weight and felt good in the hand. I'll still need to do some research into how to set it up and use it well so there's that learning curve ahead.

    In my original post, I mentioned I have a table top to smooth. I used my No7 for the initial work and that did a good job. The next step is to hit it with the smoother.

    Thanks for all your advice on this one.

    IMG_7175.jpg

  6. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    950

    Default

    We’re going to need pics of the shavings...

  7. #36
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    1017m up in Katoomba, NSW
    Posts
    10,649

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Maddux View Post
    D.W. I can't help but point out that the comparison between wood hardnesses seems to come up all the time when you get involved in discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horaldic View Post
    Not to beat about in the bush your current style is coming across to me as rude.
    Quote Originally Posted by bueller View Post
    Feel the same way. Dismissive and rude.
    Sorry, I think you guys have all been far too harsh. Someone as expert as is self evident would clearly be able to cast accurate and nuanced opinions on timbers that have never been worked, and be able to identify what type of steel is best suited for the plane blades used on them. When skill and knowledge levels are of those standards - and I'm certain they are - I've read enough loooong indications that they are - then it really doesn't matter if there is no experience whatsoever in a whole Continent's worth of timbers (just 700+ different species of Eucalyptus to start with).
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
    Jan-Feb 2019 Click to send me an email

  8. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    3,075

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bueller View Post
    Yeah I find the comparison to Australian timbers pretty funny when it comes up like this. Even in Perth we can access a huge amount of timber from North America and the rest of the world, when people say our stuff is tough to work it’s not an assumption - it’s based on experience with both.

    How many Americans have access to Aussie timbers to be making the same comparisons? With the exception of Luke I’d say very few indeed but it doesn’t stop this topic coming up time after time.
    We do have access to australian timbers here. However, something like jarrah which is common and not that expensive there is a lot more than something more desirable here.

    The idea that we don't work any hard woods is not accurate, though. we have access to cocobolo, persimmon, verawood, snakewood, kingwood, etc.

    If you're getting 4 times as much edge life from V11 in anything other than MDF (which does not cause relative blade wear similar to most woods, with the possible exception of the worst silica laden cocobolo, which doesn't blunt edges by hardness, it dulls them by abrading the edge off within strokes), something is wrong.

    You guys can have a distaste for that, but I have *dimensioned from blanks* wood as hard as 3300 on the janka scale. This is a third or half a year ago now, so I don't remember the context exactly, but there is one thing I remember. I went through a rash of making things where I was planing a lot of cocobolo (which itself is very variable). I have also planed flat MDF tables. Have any of you done that? At the time I went through the rash of cocobolo, I found A2 (in my mind) to be too soft and not wear resistant enough. I bought a whole bunch of high speed steel irons and (admittedly, I didn't count how long they lasted - it seemed like more, but more importantly, in my mind, I solved the problem).

    Several years later after learning to dimension by hand, I made a 10 inch coffin smoother out of a cocobolo blank (that includes planing the profile on it). Same stuff I thought was horrible. I sharpened one time during the entire process with a stanley 4. I would've sharpened probably 10 years prior to that. The difference is I focused on plane setup that maximizes blade life.

    I get the sense that not many people really learn to plane well and understand planes. You guys can not like that (including people who think there's a crisis with saw files, and want to assert universal knowledge about working with planes start to finish just because there's a geographic difference in lumber). However, until you resign yourself to using planes and saws for things people say are too hard for them, and actually work through it and figure out what setups get you through the largest volume of wood with the least effort, I'm not really interested in the assertion "you just don't know what hard woods are like".

    Now, in terms of the woods here, kingwood and persimmon are two of the worst things I've worked from billets. They're horrible. I don't know why, I don't really need to know why. I just know they are. The persimmon is supposedly less hard than ebony by a long shot, but it is much harder to plane. The kingwood is probably similar janka hardness - we can't get it cheaply here, so my supply of it (that I was using to natural stone bases) is just about gone.

    In the real world, I actually dimensioned billets of beech (which is not a hard planing wood, but I got the chance to do a lot more than act like a reciprocating machine taking identical smoother shavings) with V11 and a butcher double iron (a good one, though - not soft), and while the v11 would technically wear longer, I couldn't get the volume of work between sharpenings done with it that I could with the butcher iron (veritas custom jack plane vs. beech try plane). The difference, I think, is probably in the plane - am I going to lose you guys if I start talking about why an inferior iron in a plane that will allow 1 1/2 times the shaving thickness with the same effort will last longer than a better iron in the plane that doesn't. In a 2 thousandths inch thick shaving contest, the V11 would win. Probably in any wood (almost certainly). In actual use, where setup complicates results, the inferior iron wins every time.

    And I have planed cocobolo with the beech plane, too, and ebony. The results are similar.

    As far as V11 goes with the findings that LV shows, I don't think an experienced user would find them to show up in wood for the planes. The chisels, maybe. the muji HSS lasts much longer in MDF than does a good carbon steel iron. in other woods, the gap narrows. How do you learn to get the most out of a carbon steel iron so that you can do more with it than you could do taking thin shavings with a magicsteel(r) iron? You learn to use the plane, the same way you learn to use the double iron. You resign yourself to using it only until your experience matches more experienced users.

    re: the earlier comment about cherry and walnut working like a dream. Yes, they do. That's why we use them. I only use exotics because they make nicer planes. We don't even like to work hard maple by hand here (more than smoothing), because it's not nice to plane. If you're making tools out of gidgee with a milling machine, you might think that's odd for such a "soft" wood, but I'd like to see someone who has used 500 bd feet of it with hand tools only get back to me about it being easy planing.

    Hardness does matter for wear. For an inexperienced user, an extremely hard wood sends you looking for a harder iron. For an experienced user, it may not be worth the effort to switch planes. Adjusting plane setup is easier.

    I'd like one of you guys who are experts on the australian woods (and thus what I do or don't know about how planes would work with them) to show me a project that you did entirely by hand that has 100 board feet or so of jarrah in it. Let alone some of your boasting woods (like gidgee).

    Most of these "solutions" popped up due to lack of experience with tool users. That's fine. I'd rather get the experience, though, and find out why people didn't run to them 75 years ago. It wasn't due to inability to sharpen *wondersteels*.

  9. #38
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    1017m up in Katoomba, NSW
    Posts
    10,649

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    We do have access to australian timbers here.
    Errr, yes, we know that. But the point is - how much Aussie timber have you worked with? Oh, and have you ever used an HNT Smoother - indeed, have you ever seen or handled one in the real world?

    As for the rest of the truly heroic feats with a plane, does it add anything to the OP? It may be useful to note that not everybody wants to go down the hand plane rabbit hole (or even hear about what it's like down there in marathon posts that are unlikely to be any more than scan read). Some people, such as the OP just want to do a bit of smoothing of th table top and get on with the next task.

    Aussie timber is just one of the of things that are abrasive in this thread.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
    Jan-Feb 2019 Click to send me an email

  10. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Caroline Springs, VIC
    Posts
    1,645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    I have also planed flat MDF tables. Have any of you done that?.
    I have planed MDF edges, and machined 1000's of meters into skirtings and architraves, but never have I planed the face surfaces flat. I'm curious as to why you would. If the board was so far out of flat, common sense would prevail and I'd get a new board rather than chewing through the harder/denser outer surfaces of MDF and exposing the soft squishy core.

  11. #40
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Age
    70
    Posts
    2,730

    Default

    I planed the face of a large mdf panel once because I needed a backing board to fill against a wall with a sloping face. I can't say I noticed any issues, maybe because I was using a scrub plane to remove thickness and by the time I was up to flattening with a #5, I was in the squishy stuff. I do remember the #5's mouth blocking up with fluffy stringy mush though.
    Franklin

  12. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    3,075

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    Errr, yes, we know that. But the point is - how much Aussie timber have you worked with? Oh, and have you ever used an HNT Smoother - indeed, have you ever seen or handled one in the real world?

    As for the rest of the truly heroic feats with a plane, does it add anything to the OP? It may be useful to note that not everybody wants to go down the hand plane rabbit hole (or even hear about what it's like down there in marathon posts that are unlikely to be any more than scan read). Some people, such as the OP just want to do a bit of smoothing of th table top and get on with the next task.

    Aussie timber is just one of the of things that are abrasive in this thread.
    I had an HNT Gordon 55 degree jack plane for about 5 years. I struggled to find a purpose for it, figured out the double iron and that was the end of that. It didn't do anything as well as a stanley plane does, but it would do thin shavings better for a beginner who had no idea how to set up a stanley plane and use the cap iron.

    In terms of helping the original poster, it's clear - what you're referring to as heroic feats are basic planing. I guess you don't do much woodworking, but if that's true, I'm not surprised.

    The issue is that there are a few people around the world still using planes for everything. They never get into this wondersteel and high angle nonsense. It's counterproductive. An experienced woodworker told me that years ago, and it took about 5 years for me to realize he wasn't trolling me, he was just telling me what is. You can either get better at using a plane, or you can buy more planes to solve a problem. The former will make a better woodworker out of anyone, and one who is faster and more accurate. The latter will leave someone looking for the next fix.

    I wouldn't change my setup for aussie woods. I made a mistake in the first place chasing high speed steel ironed planes and even buying something like that HNT plane. I wouldn't go back to either of those.

    I actually planed wood today, as part of a project. I wonder how many other people on here did.

  13. #42
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,357

    Default

    I actually planed wood today, as part of a project. I wonder how many other people on here did.

  14. #43
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    1017m up in Katoomba, NSW
    Posts
    10,649

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    ..how much Aussie timber have you worked with?
    Still no answer on that so presumably not even a single stick? At least you know something of the HNT Jack plane, but that hardly makes you an expert on planing Aussie timbers if you've never done it. Some of them would be similar to timber from other countries, but many of them wouldn't be. Marri for example, particularly if it's curly. You see the thing with the HNTs is that Terry designed them specifically for working Australian timbers, which is why you wouldn't have found a use for it....given you've apparently never planed any. I think Terry might be a bit more expert on that subject than you are, wouldn't you agree? Or are you more expert than he on planemaking as well, and could offer him some advice?


    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    I guess you don't do much woodworking, but if that's true, I'm not surprised.
    What I do, how I do it, the reasons and frequency that I do it, and with what, is irrelevant to this - I'm not offering great slabs of advice on planing something I've never planed. I will say that I'm nowhere near the skill level that you must have, and probably never will be. Nor do I have your expertise on such a wide range of topics, but that's ok.

    You see, D.W. there is a familiar pattern emerging here. Over in the files thread, you've been banging on about a certain brand being the only one that people need, and that is of course the brand of your choice and recommendation - "it's the best" you have said, a number of times in your 49 mentions of the brand name. However, you've never used one from the other European factory known to produce good files....in fact those that have used both say the other brand is well ahead of your favoured brand.

    It's yet another example that you are apparently right without having tried or experienced the alternatives. From a logical point of view isn't that just plain, umm, illogical?

    Are you suggesting that all the Asian woodworkers should abandon their style of planes in favour of your beloved Stanleys? If not why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    I actually planed wood today, as part of a project.
    That's wonderful....


    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    I wonder how many other people on here did.
    ...but that's laughable. Stewie's on the money.


    EDIT: Actually there are two people who can claim to be very experienced with both North American and Australian timber, and they are both fond of hand planing them. They would be Luke Maddux, an emerging major talent with 5 years experience in Oz, and IanW, a long standing major talent, with something like a decade spent in Canada (where he did a helluva lot of woodworking). (with apologies to anyone else in Oz who has extensive NA experience too)

    Now there's a couple of opinions that actually really count! Both very modest guys to boot, and not a bit of dogma about either of them.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
    Jan-Feb 2019 Click to send me an email

  15. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    10,810

    Default

    Hi David

    I agree with you about the performance of a plane with a chipbreaker, but there are provisors.

    Firstly, in regard to times when you plane into reversing grain, a closed chipbreaker will out plane any high angle configuration, regardless of cutting angle and whether the plane is (single bevel) bevel down or a bevel up. I was reminded of this today when planing drawer sides made up of bookmatched Tasmanian Oak. I tried a BU with 60 degrees, but it did not cope. A Custom Veritas #4 with closed chipbreaker planed it without effort.

    I supported high cutting angles for many years. I still do, even though I now argue the case for the double iron - it is just that BU planes are so easy to use. This is very attractive to most amateur woodworkers. Also, BD planes with high cutting angles, such as the HNT Gordons, work, and work reliably (by high cutting angle, here I am referring to 55 degrees and above, commonly 60 degrees).

    Secondly, we both agree that planes with high cutting angles are largely restricted to thinner shavings. It is simply great an effort to take thick shavings with a high cutting angle. The question is whether this is a significant issue?

    The answer is "it depends". If you are working with surfaces that were prepared on machines, and are relatively flat, then it is not an issue. If you are working without machines, it is an issue if you are a professional with deadlines to meet, since work will be slower. To be quite frank, there are very few pros I know of (outside a couple you and I are familiar with) that do not also use machinery. There are a number of amateurs who profess to work with hand tools only - some wish to replicate 18th century furniture and use the same methods (or so they say ), and some are genuinely restricted to non-power woodworking owing to their living conditions.

    I understand that your passion is to discover efficiency in hand woodworking. Guys like Warren (who claims 30 or 40 years of hand tool use only - even to grinding on a sandstone wheel!) have been a flea in your ear for the past 5 or 6 years. He has made a number of strong claims over the years (for those here who do not know Warren, he hangs out on US forums). The problem is that his views for most are extreme. He channels a time in time that is long gone, and ignores the genuine advances in technology and technique that have developed in the recent times. And there are a number. Now that does not mean that the techniques he defends are past their prime. Indeed, they are the foundation of classical joinery and handtool technique ... and, as far as I am concerned, this is the core that need to be studied and used by all serious woodworkers.

    But not all woodworkers are either that serious or dedicated to best technique. Most today get their woodworking education on the forums or YouTube. Woodworking is a hobby for most, and for many it is the tools and not the technique that gets most reads and discussion. Look at the Handtool forums - no one is interested in discussion unless it is about a tool. Is Festool for the professional or amateur? I wonder?

    Steel? Well, I have used many of the steels you have, and I have also completed several (hopefully) objective evaluations. I cannot buy your conclusions about PM-V11. They clearly stand out against a range of steels in chisels in tests of chopping. In planes, it leaves A2 for dust. In common use, my subjective experience with local timber is that the abrasive nature of our woods is hard on O1 steels. What I like about PM-V11 is the O1-like quality of the edge. I have vintage (!) Clifton hammered steel for a couple of planes. They are lovely blades ... for the short time they are sharp. Similarly, old Stanley steel will do the job, but has a shorter life on my bench. What I am trying to say is that my experience with steels is different from yours, but our conditions are different as well.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  16. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    3,075

    Default

    Hi Derek - the clifton blades are OK, but they are not standouts even among O1.

    You're right, there are a lot of nuances. I do think that even for the most rank beginner, unlocking the bailey offers more capability, simplification and efficiency than anything else (including steel upgrades, though some of the 60s and 70s stanley blades are bad enough that they should be replaced). The trouble is learning to use it is described as esoteric when you can just buy the capability. I don't think spending is really an issue - it could be for some, I guess - but this is a hard hobby to get into if you can't afford to spend a couple hundred dollars on planes a few times. Reaching for the same plane that's in use all the time is much less hassle.

    Yes, on Warren. He is beyond where I'll ever go - I don't have a semi-religious dedication, but one more toward opening up ability to make anything. I think Warren is just stingy, and one of the things he prides himself on is making some income without buying anything (as he mentioned, making tapered candle trays for the local wholesale market in PA for $12 or something similar, few would work that hard).

    As for the V11 - in two different blades, I just didn't notice much. I could create a test that would exacerbate the difference between V11 and A2, and V11 and mediocre O1, but I'm not sure V11 would outlast something like Knight's O1 (NLA) by a whole lot in practical use. A2 wouldn't outlast Knight's O1 in an experienced users hands, either. I'm fairly certain that A2 was brought to woodworkers only because it's very stable and low cost/low complication to finish after hardening. O1 can be at least as good, but the details are more important. Maybe V11 has ease of processing on its side, too. However, the V11 iron in my skew shooter did not outlast (it didn't last quite as well actually) the carefully made O1 iron my house made skew shooter. If I backed my iron off to the V11's hardness level, it would. I'd expect the V11 to outlast hock and clifton, easily, though.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Veritas Low Angle Jack Plane - PM V11 Steel
    By JasonBF in forum HAND TOOLS - UNPOWERED
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 31st August 2012, 05:11 PM
  2. Veritas 5-1/4 Bench Plane Vs Low-Angle Jack Plane
    By Wolfs in forum HAND TOOLS - UNPOWERED
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 30th April 2008, 01:43 PM
  3. Flattening wood faces: low-angle jack vs. 4 1/2 smoothing plane
    By lyptus in forum HAND TOOLS - UNPOWERED
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 29th March 2005, 03:48 AM
  4. Veritas Low Angle Jack Plane
    By GregLee in forum HAND TOOLS - UNPOWERED
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 19th August 2004, 10:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •