Thread: HNT Smoothing Plane compared to Veritas Low Angle Jack

I'd invest some time in learning to use the cap iron on the stanley planes instead. The 5 for normal stuff, and if you have to work with aussie timbers in the 1900+ janka range, use the 7 instead to take advantage of the weight.

Neither the HNT smoothing plane nor the LAJ will outperform your stanley planes. If you find your irons a bit soft, replace them with something a little bit more durable (japanese blue steel or PMV11 from veritas).

both of them will cut a much greater volume of wood between sharpenings once you learn to use them.

Hi Lewiis

I have all these planes, and use them. I began using BU planes about 12 years ago, but was using HNT Gordon planes before then. The common denominator was that they could be set up with a high cutting angle (60 degrees and more) for interlocked Australian hardwoods.

I have really liked the performance of Terry's 60 degree unhandled planes, and can vouch for these. The ergonomics are another matter - a personal choice. I am experienced with woodies, and setting them up with a hammer is not an issue for me. I quite like this aspect.

The ergonomics of the BU planes is better. If anything, this area is the best of all planes. BU planes have a low centre if gravity, and work with an even lower centre of effort. The Gordons are good with a low centre of effort compared with a Stanley, but the BU planes are the lowest. This translates into ease of pushing a high cutting angle. Generally, high cutting angles encounter higher resistance, and wide blades even more so. The BU planes are way out in front with ergonomics. The down side for me - this does not effect others - is that the blades really do need to be honed with a honing guide (if you want camber on a high angle bevel - yell out if you want me to explain this. It is a crucial area if you use a BU plane). Now I prefer freehanding blades - hollow grind at the preferred bevel angle and hone on that. You cannot do this with a BU blade. You can do this with a BD blade. You must be very precise in the angle you sharpen with a BU blade, while a BD blade has much more leeway. Ultimately, the performance of a BU plane can better the Gordon, as can the ease of using it, but the sharpening can be a deal breaker, unless you are happy using a guide ... and then it is a non issue.

Now the point made by David about Stanley planes and the chipbreaker is valid. A closed up chipbreaker can turn these planes into the best anti-tearout machines around. Include in this area all BD planes with chipbreakers, such as LN and the Custom Veritas planes. The down side of the chipbreaker is learning to use one. It is not difficult (David has written the best article on this area - again, yell out if you are interested). It does, however, take about 6 months or more before it becomes a reliable method. Compare with this, BU planes are instant success, but not as ultimately proficient.

It becomes a personal preference because these planes all work, but they have pros and cons: the ergonomics and performance of BU planes, the easier sharpening and performance of HNT Gordon, and the ultimate performance of the chipbreaker along with a steeper learning curve.

Fir the record, I mostly use Veritas Custom, LN, and HNT Gordon.

Regards from Perth

Derek

G’day

given my dislike of finger-munching apparatus, I spend a fair bit of time with hand planes.

I have a few “woodies” and they still get the occasional turn in specific circumstances. Mostly when I want to make something with a really “period” feel about it. Their ergonomics don’t really do it for me though.

I also have several of the bevel-up planes from Lee Valley, great tools, especially if you keep a couple of blades for each at different angles. I keep at least one 38degree and one 25 degree sharp on the shelf. These planes are very useful when the grain turns gnarley.

However, if you already have a Stanley no.5 and no.7 I’d suggest a nice no.4 as a first smoother (or a no. 4 1/2 if you do larger work).

This way the lessons you learn in tuning your smoother can be transferred to the others you already own and vice versa.

Of all your planes I’d also suggest your smoother should be of the highest quality as it needs to give the best finish and work with the highest level of refinement. I like the Stanley planes from the 1920’s and 30’s. However, if you do a bit of reading and talking you’ll find plenty of different views on which is the golden era. Whichever you choose take the time to experiment with the mouth opening and chipbreaker set back.

Working with Australian hardwoods you will eventually want a more abrasion resistant steel for the irons. Like most australian woodworkers I’ve worked a lot with the standard Stanley 2mm thick irons and they create extra work because they dull quickly. I’ve used a couple of the late composite Hobart factory irons (M2 lower portion hammer welded to 01 upper section) these are also 2mm but work better - when sharpened to 30-35 degrees they stay sharp much longer than standard irons, about 3x longer.

I eventually had my own made (along with thicker chip breakers) in 2.5mm M2. These are great but it was a huge performance. However, I have and use quite a number of hand planes which made the exercise worthwhile. They reach a whole new level of performance and durability.

If setting out now I would suggest buying Stanley replacement Veritas PM-VII irons and chip breakers from Lee Valley in Canada. I bought a few of these to experiment with recently and they are doing a great job. Easy to sharpen on water stones or oil stones and great edge-holding. I have one sitting on my bench in my type 13 No.6 at the moment and I am impressed.

I have the Veritas Low-angle Jack and, while a great tool it overlaps significantly with a tool you already have, the stanley no.5. The HNT Gordon smoother is another fantastic tool, but it is very different in its execution to your existing Stanleys. I’d advise looking about for, either one of the Stanleys I mentioned earlier, or, if you are after more “bling”, either a Lie Nielsen or Veritas equivalent in a bevel down plane. This way you are building and consolidating your existing knowledge and skill before adding a completely new branch.

Enjoy your woodwork

I'm with DW on this.

You mentioned that your 5 and 7 are your "go to", but you never said whether or not you had a 3 or a 4. Do you?

If so, learn to use the cap iron. I am a firm believer that a Stanley plane with a properly adjusted cap iron can smooth any wood in the world, and can smooth most of them against the grain.

I'm a huge advocate of HNT Gordon planes, but I had the no handled, Asian style smoother and I didn't like it. It just wasn't my thing. Terry can make it do pretty much whatever he wants when you see him use it at a wood show, but I just couldn't get it to work. I sold it.

I also had the Veritas LAJ, and, while it's a fine plane, I don't see all the hype. You'd think to hear everyone talk about it that it is the answer to every problem one faces with planing. The foremost advantage I see in it is that it can do the job of a number of planes if you have several irons, so it's a good option for the minimalist woodworker. With a steeper iron it can smooth just fine, but not as good as a double iron (like a Stanley) plane with the cap iron adjusted appropriately, and you also run into sharpening issues. The "issues" I'm talking about have been addressed by Terry Gordon recently in a video series and also, I think, in some AWR articles, but don't quote me on that. I haven't actually read the articles.

So, like the HNT Gordon smoother, my Veritas LAJ got sold.

I now have three Stanley planes which I keep set up as smoothing planes. I have a 4 because I think it's the best size for this job, I have a 3 because it was my great grandfather's, and I have a 5 1/4. I mostly have the 5 1/4 because I wanted to try it out and see what it was good for, and, in all honesty, I love this size plane. I've been meaning to write a post about it actually. It's a good length and width. I also find it very useful for planing along narrow surfaces like, for example, following glue up of a cabinet when you need to flush up the fronts of the sides, top, and dividers.

Anyway, my final thoughts are that I, personally, wouldn't go with either, and I think you can achieve what you want to achieve for far less money than you're considering spending.

Best of luck,
Luke

Thanks for the info. There's so much to digest on this.

The project that's driving this is a dining table I'm building. The top will be about 2.2m x 1m. I've been watching videos of Ishitani smoothing his table tops with a wooden plane as well as other videos on using a plane over sanding. It's probably also wanting to get a tool like the Veritas Planes and the feeling that comes with using high quality tools. I have one of their crosscut saws and marking gauges and love using them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwArbvklyrU - At the 8min mark, he starts cleaning up the table and it's the same situation I'll be in the next few weeks.

As far as a smoother goes, I have an old Pope Falcon No4 that's sitting in pieces. It's rusty, pitted and needs more work than it's probably worth. From what I'm reading, a nice smoother (probably not the HNT) might be the best option here. I'm ready to buy a new, high quality tool to do the job. I'll also look at upgrading the blade on the No5. That sounds like it would be worthwhile.

As far a smoother goes, any recommendations out of these 3? They're all in the same $$ range so that's a non-issue.

https://www.carbatec.com.au/handtool...lane-4-veritas
https://www.carbatec.com.au/handtool...-plane-veritas
https://www.carbatec.com.au/handtool...ane-a2-veritas

Edit*

Derek, I was just rereading your review on the BUS. You make some good points. I suppose it's a matter of buying it and seeing how it works for me. Would you start with the LAS or BUS if you had to make a choice?

Hi Lewis, you have chosen 1 BD and 2 BU planes in that group. Of the BU planes, I recommend the BUS (as opposed to the LAS) as the smoother of choice. It has extra mass, which is helpful when smoothing at a high cutting angle, which you would want to do in a plane such as this. The LAS has a wider range of uses, for example, its straight sides allow it to be used on a shooting board, but that starts to introduce compromises, which ultimately reduce performance.

The option of a BD plane is still there in your third choice. However, in place of the older range of Veritas BD planes, consider the newer Custom range instead. This should not rule out other BD planes: I love the #4 Custom Veritas I have, but I also happily use a LN and a Stanley #3. They all share a common feature - they use a chipbreaker. This can be a huge step up from a high cutting angle alone by way of tearout control.

There is more to plane use than just the way the blade is attached. There are issues involving ergonomics. The following is a link to an article I wrote in this regard, and along the way it looks at BU and BD planes ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...omPlanes1.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

I have, and regularly use the Veritas bevel up smoother (BuS). It’s a top class plane and I wouldn’t be without it in certain circumstances.

However, I think you may ultimately be better off if you buy yourself a number 4 sized bevel down plane with a chip breaker as your first smoother.

This isn’t me trying to force you away from the good stuff for some esoteric reason. I have more planes than I’d care to count and a “sweetheart” no. 4 or 4 1/2, each fitted with a custom iron are still what I reach for first as smoothers. In most cases they get the job done very well and there’s no need to pull out any of the others. The reason is, they are much more readily tuneable to the nuances of particular timbers through adjusting chipbreaker angle and setback and mouth opening.

The BuS has some great characteristics but, in my experience, you have to be prepared to either continuously reprofile the thick iron (which is very time consuming) or keep a range of profiles on the shelf to get the same versatility you can achieve just through adjusting the chip breaker on a bevel down plane. For this reason I keep my BuS irons set for handling two distinct gnarley grain jobs.

Another consideration is that you can share irons (and chipbreakers) between Stanley no. 4 and no.5 planes or alternatively between no. 4 1/2, no. 5 1/2, no. 6 and no. 7 planes. Due to this my experience is that you can extract a lot of value through developing expertise and skill within this genre. A profile that you test on your smoother might not work for smoothing but end up being perfect on a trying plane. I have several such “failed” experiments that have moved between my planes and have proven to be successful elsewhere.


If you want to start to move away from the Stanleys I’d be considering the Lie Nielsen planes or the new range of Veritas custom planes that Derek mentions. Either way if you stick within one “stream” to start with it can save a fair bit of frustration and cash. The latter buys more timber, which is always a plus.

The BuS has some great characteristics but, in my experience, you have to be prepared to either continuously reprofile the thick iron (which is very time consuming) or keep a range of profiles on the shelf to get the same versatility you can achieve just through adjusting the chip breaker on a bevel down plane.

I need to comment on this. I do not wish to give the impression that the BUS is the plane to get - because, personally, I use a Custom #4 mainly - but the BUS is a fabulous smoother and really should have one blade for gnarly grain and everything else. The same blade can be used for everything. This is a 50 degree bevel.

Now, a BU blade is easy to hone at 50 degrees as long as you use a honing guide. Start with a 25 degree primary bevel (hollow or flat ground), and then add a 50 degree micro secondary bevel. You can camber this very easily. NEVER grind at 50 degrees or purchase the blades that LV sell with a 50 degree primary bevel. This will be IMPOSSIBLE to camber (too much steel). This is a strategy I developed 10 years ago: The secret to cambering Bevel Up plane blades

While the chipbreaker is a fantastic technique, not everyone wants to go down that (steep) path. For those that do not, a high cutting angle works well smoothing our Aussie woods, and the BUS is a great plane for this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That’s ok Derek, you have your experience and I have mine. I will undoubtedly use different timber, make different pieces and work differently to you.

I know you use a thicknesser and jointer for your primary flattening work, I do not.

I use my number 8 a lot and consider it a joy each time I remove it from the old trouser leg I store it in.

I’m likely a differently build to you as well.

I do use all my planes though; at different times for different jobs.

I have three irons set up for my BuS; one at about 37 degrees with a very slight camber, one at approx 37 degrees with an almost imperceptible camber and one at 25 degrees. I have a glorious piece of timber with extensive fiddleback sitting on my bench at the moment it’s 8 feet long 8 inches wide and an inch and 3/4 thick, very very hard and reasonably abrasive. The matching board has already been tamed and is now down to about an inch and a half. The BuS played its part in this.

As I said, in my experience, the BuS is a good plane but the number 4 is more straight forward to adapt. Again, that’s in my experience.

Hi Horaldic

We are in agreement with everything, but your post again raises another interesting point.

Just to clear a point, I spent many years without a power thicknesser or jointer to work rough boards. I still do thickness and joint with hand planes, when the situation is right for this. Preparing boards from rough requires a range of planes, and they get progressively finer in the work they do. Thick shavings are necessary for the rougher end of the work, because one does not wish to spend more time than necessary. Jack planes and fore planes have the most use. Jointers and smoothers are used less. Still, my hand plane jointer is still used as much as before I included a power jointer in my workshop.

The OP is asking about a smoother, not a roughing out plane. Discussions about a #8 (or my Custom #7, in my case) are irrelevant. Working at the smoother end of the spectrum does not require thick shavings. A BU smoother will work well in this situation. As you say, a BD #4 is another option (indeed, my preferred option).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Just to throw another view into the mix, lewisc - I'm somewhere between Derek & Horaldic in my choice of planes. If I were going to get a low-angle smoother, I think I'd prefer the LAS over the BUS - the sides on the latter preclude its use on a shooting board, & though they are a bit lightweight for this purpose, they can do a good job if you don't have anything larger. I used to use my LAS for shooting, which it did ok, but it was especially good for 'freehand' shooting of edges of large pieces that needed squaring after hand-sawing etc. Then in a moment of silliness brought on by having a few $50 notes in my wallet at the wrong time, I bought a LAJ clone, and it has pretty much superseded the LAS, which spends a lot of time just sitting in the tool cupboard, now.

The talk so far seems to have concentrated on using planes on difficult grain. Surely most woodworkers choose sensible woods for the majority of their projects?? For about 95% of woods I'd be likely to use for a table, standard-angle Bailey type planes do a perfectly good job, cap-iron set super-fine or not. I have a fairly broad selection of planes, including the couple of low-angle BUs already mentioned, and a couple of high-angle infills, but the planes I regularly use and nearly always reach for first are my old Bailey workhorses.

I'm into my 8th decade and not as keen to work up a sweat as I once was, so the easier-pushing 'compromise' cutting angle of 45* bevel-down configuration suits me just fine when this will do the job, which it does on the vast majority of jobs. If I strike real trouble with nasty grain I pull out the high-angle beasts, or a scraper plane in extreme circumstances, but in the vast majority of cases, the Baileys get the job done quite adequately, and the specialised planes remain sharp & sulking in the cupboard. Of course I'm pleased to have the option when necessary; I was planing some ringed Gidgee the other day & very grateful for the way my 60* smoother handled the job, but if I hadn't had it, I would've persevered with a Baily type followed by hand-scraping & got the same result.

One of the best bangs for buck you can get is to replace the original 0.1" marshmallow blades on an old Bailey plane with a good after-market blade. The thicker blades give a much more solid action, and the more abrasion-resistant steels cut the number of trips to the sharpening stones dramatically.....

Cheers,

I actually sold a Veritas LAS (my first ever decent plane), and replaced it with a BUS. Main reason being the BUS takes the same blade as the LAJ and the jointer - the LAS blade is different.

Having an entire family of BU planes allows me to just have 3 blades, all prepared with different microbevels (as Derek suggests). Easy to maintain, and I just swap blades around as required.

I find the greater mass of the BUS an improvement over the LAS, which was a bit lightweight for its' intended purpose. The LAJ makes a great shooting board plane.

I'm into my 8th decade and not as keen to work up a sweat as I once was, so the easier-pushing 'compromise' cutting angle of 45* bevel-down configuration suits me just fine when this will do the job,

Hi Ian, a comment ... the low centre of effort of the BU planes means that they are easier to push than the similar angled BD plane. In addition, one tends to use the BU plane with a thinner shaving than a BD plane. A BUS with a 62 degree cutting angle will push with about the same effort as a 45 degree Stanley equivalent.

The lower the cutting angle, the better the surface, so a lower cutting angle is prefered. This is more apparent on soft woods. My Custom #4 has a 40 degree bevel, but is a superb user because - and only because - it is used with a closed up chipbreaker. This plane gives the best of both worlds.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the ideas. I’ll spend the next week continuing to research and watching a few videos before making a decision. I’ll try to get into Carbatec or Timbecon and see if they’ve got them in stock and have a feel.