Thread: Hold Fasts, Carving Axes, Froes and Draw Knives Made in Australia

The answer is yes from me on Australian Made Holdfasts.

Yes from me. I am actually learning to blacksmith and making holdfasts was one of my driving factors.

I'm by no means committing to buy in saying this, but if the tools were quality and the wooden parts were made from AU timbers, I may even be willing to import one to the USA. I actually am in the (very, very passive) market for literally all of those tools.

Cheers,
Luke

I'd probably do a small drawknife or two if you're considering various sizes.

Originally Posted by Kate84TS

Hi All,

I am posting this in a few forums to gets peoples thoughts. So admin please let me know if its not allowed.

I am in the process of working with a few local blacksmiths to produce some quality Australian made and woodworking tools such as hold fasts, carving axes, and draw knives. As there seem to be a few in the USA and I figure that Australian blacksmiths can do just as well.

The question I have for the woodworking community is would Australian woodworkers support Australian tool makers and actually help rebuild a local Australian tool market again? As apposed to buying imported tools.

Kate.

Count me in!

Originally Posted by pjr

I'd probably do a small drawknife or two if you're considering various sizes.

Yes we are looking at making various sizes I am personally looking at an 200mm and maybe a 150mm draw knife as its seems to be fine enough for small work while still be versitile enough for medium/larger sized work. The 200mm will be a focus to start with.

Being retired and really winding down on my activities I probably wouldn't be a customer BUT I take my hat off you to embark a venture that show cases what Australians can do. I am sure quality items are in the scope of today's artisans. Best of luck

Not to be a wet blanket (I am trying to help), but I speak as someone with a fair understanding of what it takes to do what you are suggesting.

There has been a few threads about members having done the same thing here in OZ, and the biggest problem is quality. Woodworkers have become accustomed to certain level of fit and finish in their tools and blacksmiths are not woodworkers and do not understand how fussy woodworkers are and what we expect. In the long distant past I organised group buys for chisels and plane blades and one of the biggest problem was quality, even engineers/machinist could not meet the quality expectation. This will even be more true with blacksmithing which is an art and a difficult one at that, that can take a lifetime to even understand let alone master.

The other side of the coin is that if you live in the UK, its cheaper and you get better quality lamb if you buy your lamb from New Zealand, it is even more environmentally sustainable to ship lamb around the world then to farm and eat said lamb in England.

Allot of these tools you mentioned are made in Sweden to an extremely high standard, I doubt you will ever get and Australian blacksmith who will have 5 generations of tradition and experience who can make tools to the same quality.

I am a big Japanese tool guy, look at what Japanese blacksmiths are doing and it compare it to Western forged tool makers, not even the same sport.

I hope you see the analogy between lamb and tools. Certain places just have the culture, history and infrastructure that allows them to make things better then anywhere else. A perfect example is Germany, why is Germany a small tiny country, with no natural resources and few advantages is the one of the worlds economic powerhouses? Answer Mittelstand. A social cooperative contract between German society, government and private enterprise, that most Anglo-saxons would cut their own throats before agreeing to participate in a similar "Communist" venture.

Also most blacksmiths today are decorative blacksmiths, furniture, sculpture and the like, blacksmiths who works in making tools are another kettle of fish, you have different metals, different processes, different designs, forge welding and then you got the problem of heat treating and tempering. Just because a blacksmith can make a pretty scroll does not mean he can make an axe head and then to make the axe again and again and again to the same quality, that is a rare skill.

The point is just because its foreign does not make it lesser and reinventing the wheel is fraught with problems.

My last point if you were to make any tool you cannot just make a tool just for the sake of making a tool. You must differentiate what makes your product better then product XYZ and Made in Australia is not good enough. Why would I spend my money on your product instead of a product by a more establish brand name. You will need to seriously look at what makes yours better, and be prepared for the fact that woodworkers are conservative and do not warm to new ideas.

A good example of reinventing the wheel is Knew Concepts Titanium Birdcage Fret Saws, now a fret saw is an old tool you can buy them for $2 at a trash and treasure market in a dozen brands. So how can you improve on the wheel. In the case of Knew Concepts Titanium Birdcage Fret Saws they radically reimagined what every part of the saw was and could be in the end the have a USA $200 dollar tool. Is it worth the extra $198, possible but that depends on target consumers, the chippy would tell you to get stuffed, and others would sell their mothers for one.

Screen Shot 2017-05-26 at 2.51.39 pm.jpg 451904.jpg

The other quick one is Lie-nielsen Froe verses your smith made spring steel job. Compare and contrast.

Any tool you make must be able to stand on its own, head and shoulder above the rest, and having a fancy wood or mere decorative embellishment is not the same thing as a solid well thought out and tested design and solves real problems woodworkers experience.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

Woodworkers have become accustomed to certain level of fit and finish in their tools and blacksmiths are not woodworkers and do not understand how fussy woodworkers are and what we expect. In the long distant past I organised group buys for chisels and plane blades and one of the biggest problem was quality, even engineers/machinist could not meet the quality expectation.

Depends what you mean by quality and what sort of personal expectations are involved.
Just remember that 99+% of DIY folks are happy enough with the quality of the stuff sold at big hardware stores.

Even then I'm not sure hold fasts, draw knives and froes need to meet the same quality requirements as expected for chisels and plane blades.
If you want a 6 mm chisel; then a 5, 5.5 or even 6.2mm wide chisel is not acceptable whereas if any of those other tools are 5 mm too long or too short or +/1 mm too wide, does it really matter ?

That aside I am unlikely to buy only because I already have a couple of drawknives (including one I made) and if I wanted hold fasts or a froe I'd like to have a crack at making my own.
I realise not everyone has that desire or the facilities, and hope it works out and I'll be interested to see what eventuates.

Labour is expensive, skill is even more expensive. Any custom made product made by a blacksmith is going to be expensive period. You would be looking at well over AU $150 - $300 for a drawknife and that would be breaking even no profit. So only people with money will be willing to put down cash for such a product and in so doing they will expect quality that reflects that exuberant cost. Considering an old drawknife can be had for $40.

I have a friend who is a blacksmith who makes knives forge laminated in a Japanese style, a basic knife is $300. He sells them but he is just covering his costs. He has to work as a sparky to make ends meet

2saya1knife-1.jpg

The Art of Knife Making with Robert Trimarchi

Here is a USA based white smith who makes traditional style fret saws. He hasn't reinvented the wheel. He does some tools with beautiful silver inlay etc as well.

His standard of work is very high and hand finished, but he does use jigs to get uniformity where it counts like the 90* radiused bend.

What is more I believe he can't keep up with demand and you will see most of the lines in his store are sold out.

DSEL - $525 US proves my point. He is marketing to a select client base, there was discussion in another thread about sizzle.

Originally Posted by ian

if a craftsman can sell the sizzle along with the tool, they can receive a fair price for their work.

If they can't sell the sizzle they'll go broke.

Of course, the tool being sold along with the sizzle needs to be a good one.

As for both being able to keep up demand. Reminds me of this:

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

Not to be a wet blanket (I am trying to help), but I speak as someone with a fair understanding of what it takes to do what you are suggesting.

There has been a few threads about members having done the same thing here in OZ, and the biggest problem is quality. Woodworkers have become accustomed to certain level of fit and finish in their tools and blacksmiths are not woodworkers and do not understand how fussy woodworkers are and what we expect. In the long distant past I organised group buys for chisels and plane blades and one of the biggest problem was quality, even engineers/machinist could not meet the quality expectation. This will even be more true with blacksmithing which is an art and a difficult one at that, that can take a lifetime to even understand let alone master.

The other side of the coin is that if you live in the UK, its cheaper and you get better quality lamb if you buy your lamb from New Zealand, it is even more environmentally sustainable to ship lamb around the world then to farm and eat said lamb in England.

Allot of these tools you mentioned are made in Sweden to an extremely high standard, I doubt you will ever get and Australian blacksmith who will have 5 generations of tradition and experience who can make tools to the same quality.

I am a big Japanese tool guy, look at what Japanese blacksmiths are doing and it compare it to Western forged tool makers, not even the same sport.

I hope you see the analogy between lamb and tools. Certain places just have the culture, history and infrastructure that allows them to make things better then anywhere else. A perfect example is Germany, why is Germany a small tiny country, with no natural resources and few advantages is the one of the worlds economic powerhouses? Answer Mittelstand. A social cooperative contract between German society, government and private enterprise, that most Anglo-saxons would cut their own throats before agreeing to participate in a similar "Communist" venture.

Also most blacksmiths today are decorative blacksmiths, furniture, sculpture and the like, blacksmiths who works in making tools are another kettle of fish, you have different metals, different processes, different designs, forge welding and then you got the problem of heat treating and tempering. Just because a blacksmith can make a pretty scroll does not mean he can make an axe head and then to make the axe again and again and again to the same quality, that is a rare skill.

The point is just because its foreign does not make it lesser and reinventing the wheel is fraught with problems.

My last point if you were to make any tool you cannot just make a tool just for the sake of making a tool. You must differentiate what makes your product better then product XYZ and Made in Australia is not good enough. Why would I spend my money on your product instead of a product by a more establish brand name. You will need to seriously look at what makes yours better, and be prepared for the fact that woodworkers are intactly conservative and do not warm to new ideas.

A good example of reinventing the wheel is Knew Concepts Titanium Birdcage Fret Saws, now a fret saw is an old tool you can buy them for $2 at a trash and treasure market in a dozen brands. So how can you improve on the wheel. In the case of Knew Concepts Titanium Birdcage Fret Saws they radically reimagined what every part of the saw was and could be in the end the have a USA $200 dollar tool. Is it worth the extra $198, possible but that depends on target consumers, the chippy would tell you to get stuffed, and others would sell their mothers for one.

Screen Shot 2017-05-26 at 2.51.39 pm.jpg 451904.jpg

The other quick one is Lie-nielsen Froe verses your smith made spring steel job. Compare and contrast.

Any tool you make must be able to stand on its own, head and shoulder above the rest, and having a fancy wood or mere decorative embellishment is not the same thing as a solid well thought out and tested design and solves real problems woodworkers experience.

While I agree with alot of the points you have raised and they are good ones to consider. However the people I am dealing with are also professional knife makers similar to what you linked and the work they produce is of a very high quality in regards to fit and finish.

I am also a user of Japanese tools this is why I am going down this path. However as you say Japanese tools are a different sport all together. So I best leave that to the Japanese experts as they have generations of experience using and making their tools.

This all said a piece of 1075 hi carbon steel in Australia is the same 1075 hi carbon steel from Sweden. as that is also where we get out 12/27C from to. The difference is in how its worked and made with most mass production set ups in Sweden and Germany they do by machine down to the hardening and tempering. Most hind end Knife makers is Australia could produce a quality of edge to mach if not better as your friend who is a knife maker.

If you ask many green woodworkers they don't actually like the Lie Nelsion froe they find it to light and delicate as well as having a flat profile many green woodworkers prefer the heavier vintage ones made by Blacksmiths, it does perform well just not as robust. Also we would not be looking at fancy wood handles and brass fittings as we are focusing on the Design and function of the tool over "looks". LN planes are a great example that are top quality and look fantastic in Bronze but are now different it function to a top quality Norris or Stanley Bed Rock Plane. That you get for around half the price.

You like Japanese tools I am sure you know the White Paper No.1 paradox.

If you have skilled team of makers, a good design and can bring in consistent item for less then $400 per piece then you might have a chance of succeeding.

Also do not forget marketing its all about sizzle, get a hot web designer, photographer / videographer and even a marketing consultant, they can work miracles. Or make friends with them or seek out artist cooperatives you might trade skills with them.

Its about a narrative that sells anything, what makes you special and how will my life be improved if I join your brand. I am an old computer nerd, what does having an iPhone say about a person and what does having an Android say about another. Ever notice that most poor migrants and Indians all have Android were as young people, hipsters and moneyed people tend to have an iPhone. They are buying into a brand identity. Why is the gold iPhone biggest selling colour in China, answer what does the colour yellow mean to Chinese people.

Another thing to remember Australia does not have a tradition of green woodworking, we just do not have good timbers for that kind of work. Were Sweden, England & USA have both a long tradition of green woodworking. What ever you make I would target those markets primarily. If you intent to be viable.

I also have another friend and he is mad for green woodworking, but he is in Japan the moment, I am sure he would jump at something.

Have you considered making hook & sloyd knives, they are small, low material cost, easy to manufacture, come in a huge range of sizes / shapes and cheap to post overseas. You would definitely have a good market in them. And in time you could expand your product line. You could even forge laminate them just like in the old days, making yours something special. Can you say """"""SIZZZZZZZZZLE""""'


Ps my friend is Australia well sort of Italian/Australian

Ps I am still trying to help