Thread: I Thought I'd Saw it All... - or - A New Take on the Dovetail Saw?

Hmm.

Others here most certainly can make better technical comment than I can.

However. This stuff reeks of the same gimmickry I see in the USA golf industry. Different must be better.

Had a skim through the website and the prices are not obscene. However, again. That thing with the pair of rabbit ear handles called a two handed joinery saw is about the most intuitively silly thing I've seen in a very long time.

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

The thing that I really didn't understand at all was the toothing. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why you wouldn't want teeth on the front and back of the plate, and the variable pitch in both directions made no sense to me either.

Any thoughts? Anyone using one of these saws?

Cheers,
Luke

Luke, I now make my back saws with an inch of no teeth at both ends. I find it makes starting the saw cut easier, and you don't use the last inch anyway, so less filing.

Cheers
Peter
ps did you try his two handled saw? Does he still make it?

Luke, you & I share a somewhat Missourian attitude; I always need some extra convincing that something way off the normal road is worth chasing after, too, as you well know...

I don't have any problems with knife-handled saws, per se, they've been around a long time, & some folks prefer them to pistol-grip handles. At least there's a few million Japanese woodworkers who do. Angling the handle down probably helps with orienting the blade (which begs the question, why not just fit a pistol grip & get even better control of blade orientation?), but for cutting uphill? downhill? Hmmm, not too sure about that. Once a saw is started, & it's your choice whether you start up or down hill (I do both) on most dovetails I cut, I usually bring the tooth line perpendicular to the board pretty quickly anyway.

Peter, I'm afraid I don't get with this business of not toothing large bits of a saw blade. Why waste sawplate ? We both know it's not that easy to come by! If you reckon you don't need the first 2 inches of saw, why not just leave it off? As for the last inch or so, I agree it does little work, but for me, it's the place where I always start filing, and it gives me an inch of teeth that don't matter too much to get my angles & filing stance working nicely before I hit the hard-working part.

Honestly, folks, if you're having trouble staring a saw on a line, I suggest there is a either a problem with the saw or you simply need more practice (or perhaps it's time you made an apointment with your local optometrist ). There are a couple of mods that can help starting, like a more relaxed rake on ripsaws (especially with larger teeth), and maybe finer teeth at the toe, but they really shouldn't be necessary on smaller saws of 12tpi & finer. Something that I've only become aware of in the last few years is that excessive set makes a saw harder to start accurately - too much set makes the teeth skitter left & right as you start, which is rather disconcerting if you are trying to split a fine line!

Cheers,

Hi Luke

you've got to go again today and take more photos !! (and to tell Tom to come to Calgary!)


Glen Drake and his saws?
With saws, Glen has been out side the "norm" for quite some time. I'll see if I can find a picture of his earlier two handed tenon saw which is designed to be used square on to the cut line.
I believe that Glen markets his saws to people intimidated by conventional western saws.
As for the untoothed section at the front of a saw, it will make starting a cut easier because the plate is moving when the teeth engage. I believe that over the past 15 years there's been a degree of experimentation (by LN, LV and other similar makers) in tooth shape and spacing at the toe of Western saws primarily designed to make starting the saw easier. I have one of the first LN carcass saws dating from the period right after Pete Tarrant and Patrick Leach sold the Independence saw company to Tom (my saw is dual branded Lie Nielsen and Independence). The saw cuts beautifully but when starting it you really need to know what your doing. A beginner would find it very hard to start compared to LV's carcass saws and L-N's current production saws.

I reviewed this saw 4 years ago. The review is on my website.

Here the saw (and kerf starter) ..







The teeth ..




I liked the kerf starter (still use it). I cannot say the same for the saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ian(s) and Derek,

What is your take on the variable pitch on the back of the stroke? If the saw is a push saw, what, in your mind, is achieved by having a tighter pitch at the end of the push? This really stumped me. I can't see any reason for it. Why not just have more teeth at the front of the stroke and then have the remainder of the stroke coarse?

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

Ian(s) and Derek,

What is your take on the variable pitch on the back of the stroke? If the saw is a push saw, what, in your mind, is achieved by having a tighter pitch at the end of the push? This really stumped me. I can't see any reason for it. Why not just have more teeth at the front of the stroke and then have the remainder of the stroke coarse?

Thoughts?

Luke, I can only suggest the finer pitch at each end is so you can start either at the heel or toe end. I've known plenty of people who start a saw at the heel end rather than the toe. To keep to the line, I usually start at the front (using the heel) on a wide cut, then move to the back & start there, then bring the saw down to meet the partial kerf at the front. Not usually necessary on a thinner board.

In my early days of saw-making I became very keen on the idea of variable pitch & it's easy enough to vary pitches when you are hand-toothing. However, as time went by, I found it really didn't do all that much for ease or accuracy of starting with finer-pitched saws. Relaxing the rake for the first inch or so is just as effective on a ripsaw, and even easier to do.

While I concede an untoothed portion of blade might help with starting, I like to use all of my saw blade (all those years of my father's admonishing me to do so will never wear off!). That dinky length of toothing on the Drake saw would induce a short choppy stroke that would drive me nuts in short order. I reckon if I had to use one, the files would come out & it would have a full set of fangs before the first day was out!

As I said above, I've had this growing conviction that set has a lot to do with starting, and this was strengthened when I fooled about with Zac's 'no-set' 77. I've made myself a no-set carcase saw and been using it a lot the last couple of weeks. So far, I like it, it's definitely easier to start bang on the line than a set crosscut, but time will tell if I remain in love with it. It may turn out that the extra care & fussing it takes to maintain those funny little 45 degree-fleamed teeth is more than it's worth. We'll see.

But hey, when it's all said & done, viva la difference. It's good that people are still thinking about tools & tinkering with the parameters. The buying public pays their coin & makes their choice - heaven forbid there is ever only one way.....

Cheers,

Luke, there were two issues that stood out for me when using this saw.

The first was that the saw was developed alongside the Kerf Starter. Without a defined kerf, or very deep knife line, the saw was in danger of sliding off the line of cut as the non-toothed front section acted like a ice skate. This was demonstrated in the review I wrote (linked to earlier).

The second factor was that the saw cut must be started at the toe. It cannot be begun in the centre third of the saw plate since the teeth would be too coarse at that point, and the saw would be hard to start. I am not sure how many saw that way. I generally start a dovetail cut near the front of the plate, but not quite at far forward each time as this saw demands.

I found the second no-tooth section disconcerting in practice. The change of surface gave the feeling of a rougher saw cut, and the extra variable made the use fatiguing. This is not a relaxing saw. Combine that with the uncomfortable handle, and the total package is not my cup of tea. It may be the bees knees for someone else, and I have heard some on USA forums express their joy for the saw. Hey, if anyone wants one, I have a minimally used saw going cheap!

Regards from Perth

Derek

2007 version of Glen Drake's two handed saw


Glen-Drake Wild West Joinery Saw-New Idea in Sawing - Popular Woodworking Magazine

Well that Mr Lang did his darnedest to give that 2 hander a good write up, so points for that at least.
I would need a third hand to line up and start the cut.
Regards
John