Thread: Insufficient bench planes ;)

Dom, as you say first world problems ...

but if you are placing an order and attempting to stay under the $1000 limit -- which is really just a mental figment. even if the total cost were $2000 including shipping, after paying GST you would still be way in front of where you would be buying locally ...

My advice would be to get a #6. Pulling the frog right back and installing a heavily cambered blade from a #4 or #5 will give you an excellent scrub plane, especially for benches and table tops. At tech, we used a #6 as a smoother to remove the machine marks after a board came out of the planner.
(I do own a #40, but use it mostly use it with the grain to create long chamfers or to quickly reduce the width of a board, especially when it's too cold to take the table saw and its dust outside.)

Originally Posted by DomAU

Thanks Derek,

...
I'm talking 16" Tenon saw not dovetail. I already have 3 great dovetail saws. I have the 16" LN Tenon saw which has a .032" plate and 4" depth under the spine. I have only used it briefly but find I don't like the feel - just way too much force required - in 40mm wide vic ash my .015" dovetail saw with 17ppi cuts faster than the 16" LN. They also do a thin plate version with a tapered 3" - 3 3/8" depth and 0.02" plate - still 11ppi - not sure if that would cut easier and feel nicer. I'm thinking I'd rather a 14" sash with a thin plate and about 12 or 13 ppi as I don't cut large tenons and prefer a slower but easier and smoother cut.

Truly first world problems.

Ever used a Galbert Drawsharp for drawknives and think it's worthwhile or just a gimmick/crutch?

Cheers, Dom

Hi Dom

I have a 16" tenon saw by Mike Wenzloff. It is a beast. It does get used, but is better suited to large tenons. More use is made of a 14" Gramercy sash saw. This is light and just a really nice saw for tenon cheeks.

With regard the Drawsharp, I have had one for a couple of years ... and not yet used it! All my drawknives are prepared (by myself) with a hollow grind, and are easy to hone with stones directly on the hollow. I do plan to use it - just not had the need. If your blades are not hollow ground (which I did before getting the Drawsharp), then I think it is a very useful jig.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by rob streeper

The notes make the symphony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6_eqxh-Qok

Gold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

After reading the list of bench planes you already had my first thought was that if it were me working with that selection I would benefit from a number 8. I didn’t seriously point you in that direction because it wasn’t the question you asked.

A number 8 is not a politically correct plane. It’s a beast. If you were a smaller or frailer person you probably wouldn’t want one. They can take real effort to use over harder and bigger timber and you have to get your technique right or you can damage yourself. I’ve seen people put both their backs and shoulders out through not driving through their legs when using large jointers.

This said, it’s my favourite plane. I’ve had my number 8 a long time and I still look forward to opportunities to use it. When I want to level a big bench or table it makes the job much more straight forward.

The next plane I would suggest as a “gap” in your bench plane lineup is a number 6. A six is a very flexible plane. It can be a larger jack, a bigger smoother or a smaller jointer. I find that its mass makes it a great scrub over larger surfaces because of the momentum it carries. You can indeed fit the iron from a 5 to it with a camber and go for it on wavy boards. Or, after truing a table top you can ever so slightly camber a full width blade, set the chip breaker forward and close the mouth and have a fantastic big smoother. It’s also great as a jointer for smaller lengths, particularly if you want to batch process such as for some cabinet work.

I find I choose a combination of planes to do tasks on particular surfaces. Take a big farmhouse tabletop done in Blue Gum. As the scrub I might use a six with a 5 width cambered iron and then move to a standard six iron with less camber to knock out the worst bumps before switching to my eight for initial diagonal leveling. If the grain were a bit cranky my smoothing might then start with my BuS.

So, no, if I had your selection of bench planes my next move would not be to buy another smoother it would be to save for a number 8.

However, I’m not you and you might really love the idea of a number 3, if so buy a number 3. That choice may drive the direction of your work in some unexpected direction.

I tend to acquire new tools either to solve problems I repeatedly face or to open up new capability. I know if I worked with your set of bench planes I could accomplish a lot. You might be better off looking at other gaps in your tools, either through replacing the weakest link or adding a new capability?

Dom

The questions you are posting are likely to result in a thread lasting the remainder of my time on the Twig, as they cut across not only the performance of the various smoothing planes but also individuals preferences, bias, and also their aesthetic.

I suggest you have sufficient smoothers, along with the Bevel up Jack, for practical purposes, and concentrate on other tools. I have a very nice Stanley No 3 which performs excellently but gets very little use as I tend to reach for a card scraper should I get a bit of tear out, which usually fixes the problem quickly.

You seem to have a desire to build up your collection of saws, which is good, but I have seen naught from you about sharpening, perhaps the Gramercy saw vice would be more beneficial for you. This is fantastic, I put a couple of 5/16" screw inserts into the side of my Workbench, so I can set it up in a matter of seconds, although I still have a long way to go to get a saw performing to an optimum level.

My aim is to be able to reform and cut teeth, change from Rip to X cut and vice versa, as well as just simply sharpen, and this is unlikely to happen overnight.

Another option could be a LN No 51 shooting plane, mine gets used most days and lives permanently on a shooting board on one of my benches, but can be quickly slid into storage on the side of the bench.

Regards

Id definitely add a 3 to your plane collection Dom . I like narrow planes with a radius so half the blade is cutting giving a 15 to 25mm shaving . Its fast removal with less cutting pressure which makes things easier and leaves the job with a hand planed look which can be scraped flat after . I do the same with a no 4 . I usually have three no 3's and three no 4's set up . I'm not into 4 1/2 planes. I only ever had one . I didn't mind it for softwood wide planing but I find its not needed for what I do and I have those widths in the longer planes If I need the width.
Rob

Thanks for all the help guys! Yeah, in hindsight I should have just called this thread "help me spend some money and fill out an order from LN" .

Basil - I already have a Veritas Shooting board plane and love it - although I always preferred the look of the LN version by far, Derek's review of the two swayed me towards the Veritas for edge retention. So that's out. With regard to the saw vise - yes this is something I'd really like to get. I'm yet to sharpen a western saw and recently made a simple pair of wooden vice jaws to hold a blade - but would far rather a proper metal vise - however I just want to add something available from LN US.

Horaldic - Yes, I am very drawn to the No.8 and will get one eventually - just not in this order as it would bump me over the $1000Au GST limit - just!

It seems that a number 6 may prove useful, despite having the Veritas Jack. On that, I find I hardly use the Jack - I tend to use the jointer and smoother - not sure why exactly but maybe because I have it set up with a low cutting angle and have been using woods prone to tear-out.

The #3 is still in contention again after I'd kind of decided against one - thanks Rob for bringing it back into the mix and confusing me again haha.

Alternatively, just to confuse things even more, I'm thinking I may just add a drawsharp, Bogg's Concave Spokeshave and maybe a No 49. Small Tongue and Groove plane (I have the Veritas small plow, conversion kit and tongue and groove, but this just seems so much more efficient).

Anyone know if the concave spokeshave is actually practical for finishing chair spindles etc, or is it just frustrating to sharpen, to use, and not really advantageous over just a flat spokeshave and a card scraper or a bit of sand paper etc?

Any thoughts on the No.49? Probably won't use it that often as I can only think it would be handy for cabinet backs, but would only set me back about $250 so if it's fun to use on those occasions...

Sorry, I know this thread is devolving from my original question - but bear with me please .

Cheers,

Dom

Dom, the LN #49 is a super easy plane to use. Spending on one depends on how often you want to do T&G. It is a useful joint for the backs of cabinets.

With T&G in mind, an alternative (because you need the waters to be muddied a little more! ), is to sell your Small Plow and get the new Veritas Combo plane. I have not worked out the switchover costs for this, but ... you can use the T&G blades from the Small Plow as well as all the other blades. The Combo does not require anything like the set up of the Small Plow to do T&G. It is simply a matter of switching blades, and I can set up the Combo for this task in seconds. Plus you get a better (more solid) plane for ploughing grooves, and it can do dados (since it has nickers on twin skates).

Re the spokeshaves: I have all three LN Bogg shaves. The concave shave looks intuitively to be the one to go for for spindles, yet it really does not offer anything extra over a flat shave, since you are not removing much waste. Stick to the flat and scrapers. There - saved some money for the Combo!

Finally, a thought about a #6 - Clearly some like it. I've never used one, nor even considered the need. My primary bench planes are a wooden jack (shopmade), a modified HNT Gordon Trying Plane for jointing small, narrow boards, the Veritas Custom #7 jointer, and either the LN #3 or Veritas Custom #4. Where would a #6 fit in? I dislike the #5 1/2 (I have a Stanley) which is similar - too wide and cumbersome for jointing short stuff, and too long and wide to be used as a smoother. The #6 seems to me to be even more so. I like a #5 (I have a #605), which I take with me (and a Stanley #3) when demoing at a wood show. My old Stanley #62 is fantastic as a small jointer, and more controllable than the wider, heavier Veritas LA Jack (which is a great plane, but does not fit in with my current users any longer, especially as I have a dedicated shooting plane). As you can see, I prefer lighter planes. The #6 just seems to me to be a great lump. I have tried a LN #8 and felt the same way about that.

Regards from Perth

Derek

one issue / consideration with smoothing planes hasn't been discussed.
if most of your boards come out of a planner, then a long wide smoother like a #6 (or #5-1/2) is a better option than a short narrow #3.

as to shaves, my favourite is the Small LN (flat sole) -- I also have a flat sole Bogg and two Veritas (flat and curved soles). I think what attracts me is the shape of the handles on LN's copy of the Preston original

Thanks guys. I'm well and truly still confused. I think if I'm going to go for a #5 #5 1/2 #6 or #8 etc I need to pick them up and hold them at least. But then, if I did that, I'd buy locally as I don't think it's right to have a play and then buy online - and I'm not planning on driving interstate to do so before COB tomorrow (my deadline as I need the other stuff ordered) anyway.

So I'm well and truly confused still . Even the voting is a tie across all three smoothing plane options! I'm coming back around to a #3 with a 45deg frog (going to trust you here Derek - assuming it will be better for super crazy grain, than a 55 with close-set breaker) , sharped razor sharp, super close chipbreaker and ready to clean up anything my daily driver #4 might mess up mid job as it dulls. But the 4 1/2 is still fighting in my head.

Fall back is a No.49 - cheaper option and a fun toy to play with on those occasions where there is an opportunity.

Thanks guys - keep opinions coming if you have them. In a training course tomorrow so a little distraction every now and then won't hurt!


Also, sorry for the late response, spent the day starting a shave horse - need to make 100 dowels for a timber frame build and will later use it for chairmaking etc. Need a seat, pedal and a bit of finish work but getting there. Simple but effective design, that packs down easily, that I saw in Finewoodworking.

20180318_204634.jpg

Cheers, Dom

How about go local for a #3 and/or #6 ... no doubt way under the new LN price range ... Stanley USA ID

You can try them out and upgrade later - or dispose - before making a larger $ commitment.
... and then focus on those extras you mentioned for the current LN order.

Regarding the 16" saw ... a 40 thou handsaw can cut very sweetly, so maybe just a reconfiguration of the teeth would suit you better.

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by DomAU

So I'm well and truly confused still . Even the voting is a tie across all three smoothing plane options!

I suggest you disregard the voting, and just go with the opinions. and here's another one

Originally Posted by DomAU

I'm coming back around to a #3 with a 45deg frog (going to trust you here Derek - assuming it will be better for super crazy grain, than a 55 with close-set breaker) , sharped razor sharp, super close chipbreaker and ready to clean up anything my daily driver #4 might mess up mid job as it dulls.

there's always the #2. The tote might be small but I can still get a proper (index finger extended) grip, and as a box maker of my acquaintance remarked, it's invaluable for smoothing small pieces.

Originally Posted by DomAU

But the 4 1/2 is still fighting in my head.

com'on you know down the track you will need both

Originally Posted by DomAU

Fall back is a No.49 - cheaper option and a fun toy to play with on those occasions where there is an opportunity.

For a number of years, I looked longingly and hard at the #49, but in the end have decided that the Veritas Combination (or Record #405, Stanley #45) are better options for tongue and groove work

Originally Posted by DomAU

spent the day starting a shave horse - need to make 100 dowels for a timber frame build and will later use it for chairmaking etc. Need a seat, pedal and a bit of finish work but getting there. Simple but effective design, that packs down easily, that I saw in Fine woodworking.

20180318_204634.jpg

while never one to discourage the construction of appliances and jigs, pegs (or dowels) for a timber frame build are best made using a hatchet, dowel plate and maul. There's a neat video out there showing a craftsman making pegs for a hay rake this way -- and I want his dowel plate.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Dom, the LN #49 is a super easy plane to use. Spending on one depends on how often you want to do T&G. It is a useful joint for the backs of cabinets.

With T&G in mind, an alternative (because you need the waters to be muddied a little more! ), is to sell your Small Plow and get the new Veritas Combo plane. I have not worked out the switchover costs for this, but ... you can use the T&G blades from the Small Plow as well as all the other blades. The Combo does not require anything like the set up of the Small Plow to do T&G. It is simply a matter of switching blades, and I can set up the Combo for this task in seconds. Plus you get a better (more solid) plane for ploughing grooves, and it can do dados (since it has nickers on twin skates).

Re the spokeshaves: I have all three LN Bogg shaves. The concave shave looks intuitively to be the one to go for for spindles, yet it really does not offer anything extra over a flat shave, since you are not removing much waste. Stick to the flat and scrapers. There - saved some money for the Combo!

Finally, a thought about a #6 - Clearly some like it. I've never used one, nor even considered the need. My primary bench planes are a wooden jack (shopmade), a modified HNT Gordon Trying Plane for jointing small, narrow boards, the Veritas Custom #7 jointer, and either the LN #3 or Veritas Custom #4. Where would a #6 fit in? I dislike the #5 1/2 (I have a Stanley) which is similar - too wide and cumbersome for jointing short stuff, and too long and wide to be used as a smoother. The #6 seems to me to be even more so. I like a #5 (I have a #605), which I take with me (and a Stanley #3) when demoing at a wood show. My old Stanley #62 is fantastic as a small jointer, and more controllable than the wider, heavier Veritas LA Jack (which is a great plane, but does not fit in with my current users any longer, especially as I have a dedicated shooting plane). As you can see, I prefer lighter planes. The #6 just seems to me to be a great lump. I have tried a LN #8 and felt the same way about that.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek

Yes I have an LV concave shave, which i thought would be the Bees Knees for spindles, But it does look nice on the toolbar alongside my other shaves.

I have a #6 UK built Stanley which, i have had for a very long time. I find it excellent, and quite versatile as I often will use it for flattening ( I have done tables and bench tops ) and it can be adjusted to take very fine shavings to smooth a surface.

Dom

I suggest you read up on the Windsor Chair makers such as Curtis Buchanan, Peter Galbert and others, who ( obviously ) make a lot of spindles, and use a draw knife and flat shaves to do so.

I like the LN shaves including their Small one which when handled sensitively is capable of very fine work. likewise the HNT small shave is wonderful in concave work, their flat shave is also excellent.

Have you thought of making a Krenov style Plane ( or several ) I have made a jointer as shown ( not a good photo ) from Brigalow and also three smaller planes. They are interesting to make and are capable of a superlative finish, plus you can make a lot of them for the price of a LN plane.

Regards

p.s

If you have not already read it Alan Peters book is an excellent read. He is reputed to have done a lot of his work using only a #7 and a block plane

Dom
This is one of the smoothers I made from Brigalow, then textured with a carving chisel to give a better grip and a nice feeling. The adjusting hammer is made from a Brass plumbers "T" and offcuts of Oak.

No doubt by now your thoughts are now racing " Plane, Saw, Bronze, Iron, Wood ??" and a tear or two maybe welling up


DSC_0120.jpg

Best Regards