Thread: Insufficient bench planes ;)

Actually, I take back my vote for No more you idiot and change it to Give Mary One of the Current Planes. This way you can satisfy your need to get more without running out of room.

Not much help but I get points for participation.

Dom, I am the wrong guy to say you have too many!

I have the LN bronze #3 and bronze (Anniversary) #4 1/2, and so I will tell you their story.

The #4 1/2 came to live with me when it was released for sale about a decade ago (only 500 were made). It came standard with a 50 degree frog. This was too low to plane West Australian interlocked timbers without tearout. So I purchased the 55 degree frog to increase the cutting angle. I really did not like it (some may, but it was not enough of an increase to prevent tearout, and it made the wide blade harder to push). So it sat on my shelf.

A few years after purchasing the #4 1/2, I decided to get the #3. I like small planes. I have a wide-ish palm (4" across just below the thumb), and I decided to fit the #4 handle, which is slightly larger. The #3 handle is too small for me. You'd think I would have learned something from the #4 1/2, but I got it with a 55 degree frog ... well, easier to push (only 1 3/4" wide blade). The #4 handle fits with the 50 (just) and 55 degree frog. However the frog is still not enough height to mitigate tearout. So this plane went onto the shelf as well.

A few years went by, around 2012 now, and I learned to use the chipbreaker in a Stanley to avoid tearout. Back off the shelf came the LNs. Only now the frogs were too high! Long story cut shorter ... both planes wound up with a 45 degree frog. They are sublime with a chipbreaker set close. But now the 45 degree frog on the #3 is too low to fit the #4 handle. This is easily sorted by rasping the top of the handle to fit.

Below you can see a upgraded and new #4 (rear) with what was removed from the original Cherry #4 ....



The modified #4 is a close fit ...



My recommendation is to get the standard 45 degree frog and learn to set the chipbreaker. The 50- and 55 degree frogs will increase the effort to push and offer little advantage over a standard frog if you are not setting the chipbreaker.

Regards from Perth

Derek

What about an HNT Gordon Smoother - designed for hard timber that tear out. Blade can be reversed and the plane can then be used as a scraper (HSS blade option required for that to cope with the heat).

If you want pretty then go for a specialty timber.

All your $pend stays in Oz too....

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Dom, I am the wrong guy to say you have too many!

I have the LN bronze #3 and bronze (Anniversary) #4 1/2, and so I will tell you their story.

The #4 1/2 came to live with me when it was released for sale about a decade ago (only 500 were made). It came standard with a 50 degree frog. This was too low to plane West Australian interlocked timbers without tearout. So I purchased the 55 degree frog to increase the cutting angle. I really did not like it (some may, but it was not enough of an increase to prevent tearout, and it made the wide blade harder to push). So it sat on my shelf.

A few years after purchasing the #4 1/2, I decided to get the #3. I like small planes. I have a wide-ish palm (4" across just below the thumb), and I decided to fit the #4 handle, which is slightly larger. The #3 handle is too small for me. You'd think I would have learned something from the #4 1/2, but I got it with a 55 degree frog ... well, easier to push (only 1 3/4" wide blade). The #4 handle fits with the 50 (just) and 55 degree frog. However the frog is still not enough height to mitigate tearout. So this plane went onto the shelf as well.

A few years went by, around 2012 now, and I learned to use the chipbreaker in a Stanley to avoid tearout. Back off the shelf came the LNs. Only now the frogs were too high! Long story cut shorter ... both planes wound up with a 45 degree frog. They are sublime with a chipbreaker set close. But now the 45 degree frog on the #3 is too low to fit the #4 handle. This is easily sorted by rasping the top of the handle to fit.

Below you can see a upgraded and new #4 (rear) with what was removed from the original Cherry #4 ....



The modified #4 is a close fit ...



My recommendation is to get the standard 45 degree frog and learn to set the chipbreaker. The 50- and 55 degree frogs will increase the effort to push and offer little advantage over a standard frog if you are not setting the chipbreaker.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,

Thanks for your advice. As always, much appreciated. I have two questions;

1 - Whilst I'm not sure if I have the chip-breaker sorted, is the combination of close-set, tight-fitting, highly polished chip-breaker (not sure what angle is best?) along with a higher frog angle worse than a lower frog angle in terms of performance on the wood, or because it makes it very hard to push? Wouldn't a higher frog angle and close-set chip-breaker shaped appropriately, be as good or better for preventing tear-out?

2 - Which size plane, in addition to my #4 and LV BU, do you think would add most in terms of versatility / functionality? Or do you think it's too much about personal preference etc? If you had to give up the #3 or the #4 1/2, which would you keep?

Cheers,

Dom

Originally Posted by DomAU

Hi Derek,

Thanks for your advise. As always, much appreciated. I have two questions;

1 - Whilst I'm not sure if I have the chip-breaker sorted, is the combination of close-set, tight-fitting, highly polished chip-breaker (not sure what angle is best?) along with a higher frog angle worse than a lower frog angle in terms of performance on the wood, or because it makes it very hard to push? Wouldn't a higher frog angle and close-set chip-breaker shaped appropriately, be as good or better for preventing tear-out?

2 - Which size plane, in addition to my #4 and LV BU, do you think would add most in terms of versatility / functionality? Or do you think it's too much about personal preference etc? If you had to give up the #3 or the #4 1/2, which would you keep?

Cheers,

Dom

Hi Dom

Rule of thumb: the higher the cutting angle, the coarser the surface.

Having stated that, I have had fine finishes from a (60 degree) HNT Gordon smoother with a sharp blade on hardwood. Nevertheless, as one moves up in cutting angles, the cut progresses towards a scraped surface. This is especially so on softer timbers. The ultimate of this is a scraping plane, and the surface left by these is typically dull. Conversely, the lower the cut, the cleaner the blade severs the wood fibres, and the brighter - clearer - the finish. Look at the finish one can achieve with a Japanese smoother with a cutting angle in the high 30's.

It was for this reason that I went for a 42 degree frog on my Veritas Custom Smoother. This is low ... yet, with the chipbreaker set close, it will plane anything you care to throw at it without tearout, and do so leaving an excellent surface.

One can indeed add a closed chipbreaker to a high cutting angle. I was experimenting with this in 2012. The advantage was that the chipbreaker did not need to be as close or have as high a leading edge. However the high angle simply duplicated some of the effect, and made it harder to push. It also left a coarser finish, as commented above.

In terms of size of plane, my preference is a smaller smoother. I would use a #3-size on most all work. The plane is just more nimble. There is not much difference in length between a LN #3 (at 9") and a Veritas Custom #4 (at 9 1/2"). The #3 is narrower (1 3/4" blade) than the #4 (2" wide blade), however they have a similar feels - I think that the size differences are reduced by the lower centre of effort from the Veritas.

I have a couple of planes for larger panels. The truth is that the #4 1/2 is slower to return to wider use because it was out of the running for so long - I keep forgetting that I have it! The Veritas BUS is a fabulous smoother (but I do not use it as much as I could because I hate sharpening with guides), and the same could be said for a Marcou BU smoother I own. The Marcou is possibly the best smoother I have ever used, but it is a beast in size and mass. The LN #4 1/2 is like this (to a smaller degree, of course). It all just goes to reinforce my preference for smaller, more nimble smoothers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

G’day Dom,

I don’t think you’re at anywhere near saturation point yet. That comes when your better half wants to store her Tupperware in the top of a cupboard and there’s no room because someone has stored half a dozen large bodied planes up there

A number three sized plane is traditionally smaller all round than a number 4 including the tote. I don’t use mine often, but it does get use. When In use I don’t grip the tote the same way as there’s not really enough room, I mostly just wrap my hand around the back.

For me, there’s a scale of work that’s just right for a number 3, it’s the work where a four feels a little bit big because the toe and heel can reach close to right across and you get insufficient free movement of the plane over the surface with full registrations. For the same reason I also occasionally use my number 2, which some members of my family find quite comical; it was described as being like “watching a bear peel an egg”.

Like Derek I’d suggest you opt for a 45 degree frog, you get lots of versatility just with adjusting mouth opening and chip breaker, the ease of use factor and marginally increased durability of the cutting edge mean that for 99% of work I suspect you’ll be better off that way.

If you plan on moving more into larger pieces a no 4 1/2 would make sense to me. It works particularly well with a 5 1/2, 6 and 7 because of the capacity to swap irons. All of this is moving more into personal preference than exact science but in many situations where I use my number 8 for leveling work the 4 1/2 seems to feel a better choice for a smoother.

I was was taught that ideally you want the entire footprint of your smoother to sit within that of the plane you used for jointing/leveling. The analogy being that one is a ship plowing through the waves flattening them out and the other a boat riding over the waves for the final part of the journey.

Not sure if that helps at all, I guess it comes down to your immediate needs. If you’re going to be making more smaller narrower pieces then a no. 3 is the better choice whereas if you are moving toward larger wider pieces then a 4 1/2 would be more appropriate.

Let me tell you though, once you get a 4 1/2 you’re likely to start wanting an 8, and a 6. It’s just like that!

Horaldic

The notes make the symphony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6_eqxh-Qok

"It followed me home, honest !!"

On a non technical aspect: You haven't got a three yeah? Simply having one would be nice I'm sure and you might kick yourself every time you have a piece that would have been perfect for a three. You don't have another plane that size at the moment if I read you correctly.

Originally Posted by Mnb

On a non technical aspect: You haven't got a three yeah? Simply having one would be nice I'm sure and you might kick yourself every time you have a piece that would have been perfect for a three. You don't have another plane that size at the moment if I read you correctly.

Yeah, I don't have a #3 and I suppose the LV BUS is more like a 4 1/2, but bevel up vs bevel down.

Basically it comes down to;

-will the #4 1/2 may be more enjoyable to use, or actually be more effective in certain applications than the LV BUS / #4?

-will the #3 be more enjoyable to use or be more effective in certain applications than the #4? I initially thought that maybe the #3 with 55deg frog, setup for maximum effectiveness in difficult grain, could serve the purpose of cleaning up after the #4 in localised areas. But if, as suggested by Derek, a 45deg frog with closed-up chipbreaker will be more effective than a 55deg frog, then I can't see that a #3 with any combination of frog/breaker setting would provide any better finish than a #4. Right?

If neither the #4 1/2 or #3 provide any functional benefit over my current planes (through better performance or having one permanently setup for a specific task like cleaning up difficult areas), then it comes down to; which one do I want from a "nice to have because it makes me feel good" point of view. Or get neither.

Cheers,

Dom

Originally Posted by DomAU

I've decided I'm buying another smoother.

seriously you don't need another smoother, seriously

Originally Posted by DomAU

Anyway, to the point. For bench planes, I have a LN Bronze No.4, LV BUS, LV BU Jack, LV BU Jointer and a LN Bench Rebate 10 1/4. I'm thinking I want to add either a No.3 with middle-pitch / 55 deg frog for times when tear-out may occur with the No.4, particularly mid-project if the No.4 dulls a little and for smaller parts, boxes etc, or a No 4 1/2 with York Pitch as I see a large workbench, some cabinets and dining table in my near future and figure I might like the larger smoother for those projects.

for those projects, a standard pitch #4-1/2 and a #6 or #7 are where you should be heading.

Like Derek, I have a anniversary bronze #4-1/2 with a high angle frog which mostly sits on a shelf.
The bench planes that get the most use are #5, #4-1/2 (iron, with standard 45 degree frog), #4 (iron) and #6 -- probably in that order.

The #6, #4-1/2 are an awesome combination.

I've thought about adding a #3, but ... a #9-1/2 block plane is just as useful. Although not on the website, Lie Nielsen will make you a #9-1/2 (or a #9 cabinet makers block plane) as a special order

seriously you don't need another smoother, seriously

Dom, Ian is quite right. You have all the smoothers you need. Certainly my post was not suggesting that you need a better smoother. It was simply about how to make a smoother better.

Of course, none of this means that you are limited from acquiring another ....

But you do not need another smoother.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Dom, Ian is quite right. You have all the smoothers you need. Certainly my post was not suggesting that you need a better smoother. It was simply about how to make a smoother better.

Of course, none of this means that you are limited from acquiring another ....

But you do not need another smoother.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Of course I don't "need" another smoother; I know that . Like I said, it's more greed than need.

Basically I'm getting a couple of things from Lie Nielsen (US) that aren't available here and with the crazy high shipping costs from the US I'm paying a lot of shipping for not much stuff; however, adding an additional item like a #3 or even a # 4.5 only adds about $20 to my total shipping, so it kind of feels like an opportunity to pick up another toy for a good deal and conversely, a wasted opportunity if I don't (bad logic to buy something you don't need, I know - but that's where the "greed" comes into it!). The only other things I could possibly want form LN are a fishtail chisel for half-blinds, a thin plate 16" Tenon Saw as I'm not a fan of the .032" plate version I have (although I'd probably prefer a 14" sash with 12ppi rip from BadAxe), and maybe a scrub plane (which I'm not sure I'll actually use that much as I'm a hybrid woodworker and have a 12" jointer / planer).

Come Monday morning I'm just going to pull the trigger on something, or nothing. Still completely unsure whether the #3 and #4.5 will bring more joy though. I'd get a #8, but that would put me over the $1000 GST limit.

Cheers,

Dom

Hi Dom

If I had a LN #4, I would not get a #3. They are too similar. I purchased a LN #3 because I wanted a LN smoother smaller than the #4 1/2 I already had. I just like smaller smoothers. I purchased the Veritas Custom #4 because they did not have a #3 size (and I do not know when they will, or even if they will do so). I had the Custom #7 (as a gift from Rob Lee - it was not one I was involved with the pre-production testing), and really liked it, and the AUD was really strong at that time, so ordered the #4.

I have more smoothers than I can throw a stick at, but really only use the LN #3 and the Veritas #4. For wide panels I pull out the #4 1/2 if I remember. Either of the other two planes work just as well for me.

The other important plane is the jointer. The Veritas Custom #7 has taken over from the Veritas BU Jointer. The #7 is simply a superb plane. Mine has a 40 degree frog which, used with the chipbreaker, is equally at home on faces, edges or end grain. If you do not have a #7, then I'd seriously look at this plane. I also have a 12' Jointer-Thicknesser (Hammer A3-31), but the jointer plane gets used all the time - not just when I square smaller boards, but fine tuning edges.

If I was you, I would not get another smoother. I would also not waste my money on a scrub plane. I use a refurbished Stanley #605 or a woodie jack I made. I use the woodie most. These are coarse planes and not worth the budget.

I would like the idea of another dovetail saw if unhappy with the one in use. Consider that path. Having said this, I would first look at the gaps in your hand saw collection - a sash saw is used frequently. You current dovetail saw may simply benefit from a sharpening or change of teeth configuration. Or just get both!

Regards from Perth

Derek