Thread: Is a saw a saw?

Thanks for the vids, that explains the tension thing well, as well as explaining the thrust line (as far as I can tell that's pretty much a different way of explaining the significance of hang angle, I.e greater angle is more aggressive because you 'saw uphill'). It's fantastic to be able to visualise it. I'll buy that DVD myself if I can afford it.

The tensioning business doesn't sound so bad, unless you're doing it with a saw that's been badly bent or damaged. i would have no objections to ruining a few cheap saws to learn. Probably requires an anvil, I'm trying to think what I might use instead, need some sort of big ole steel plate. Sounds like exactly the sort of black art that interests me.

I wonder whether I might be able to taper grind a blade using an electric sander?

Chippy, you have convinced me to just buy a decent old saw, and spend time restoring that, instead of wasting time on junk. The reason for my hesitation is that I have never seen a handsaw that's not complete plastic rubbish at my local flea market (after a few years and many visits) and eBay is slim pickings. So I just don't know where to find them.

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

Chippy, you have convinced me to just buy a decent old saw, and spend time restoring that, instead of wasting time on junk. The reason for my hesitation is that I have never seen a handsaw that's not complete plastic rubbish at my local flea market (after a few years and many visits) and eBay is slim pickings. So I just don't know where to find them.

you find them (the good ones) when you least expect it, if you want one this weekend or this month then your bound not to find it, but they come along often enough if you keep your eyes peeled, patience! sometimes you find one after the other!..i usually leave em where they are now i that have more than i need, although this weekend at a market i noticed a disston No. 112 (thats the old pre 1926 #112) in excellent condition, perfect handle and blade, some mild surface rust, sitting in amongst some gardening tools, brooms and such, $15 she wanted, i didnt mind paying that, especially since she was going to make some sort of wind chime out of it she said, thought i might like to do that to it so she described to me how you chop it into three (throw away the handle) and heat it up and bend it into rings, she stopped when she saw my face scrunched up like eating a lemon, she then thought maybe i wanted it to play music (prob cause i made a few notes while i was waiting), nup, funny how the last thing she thought of was, "oh are you a carpenter and going to use it" made me laugh (not that you have to be a carpenter to use one, it was just funny she happened to say it)

that guy is better than some of the other internet celebrities and people that earn money selling dvd's and doing the circuits for money but i wouldn't take it all in as gospel, there are some glaring points that stand out to me that i couldn't believe, some are just small things e.g. doesn't call some things by what i believe are the correct names etc no big deal but makes me wonder if its said just to be different to everybody else , he doesn't really give the best explanation for the hang angle imo either, misses quite a bit so its misleading to a degree, and some info i might account for as just different people do different things, but some is so far wrong imo it surprises me since he is meant to be qualified and use them often, i cant imagine how, if someone was actually using them that much would set himself up the way he does, it makes no sense to me, some of the things he says just dont add up if someone uses them for work..but no doubt the dvd good enough for many people , i dare say. i had started to write a detailed thread of different saws and hang angles and their uses with pics (had my daughter helping organising all the pics), that was taking a while, i still had quite a bit to go when Paul put the clip up, he's good at putting clips up ...so i quit writing the thread and deleted it, no point doing things like that that take too much time when its easier to watch pauls clips, even if they do have things wrong imo, its close enough to save me the bother!


cheers
chippy

That's an act of charity Chippy. Imagine losing your job, being cut up and left to blow about in the wind. Pure cruelty.
Cheers,
Jim

I have time on my side, I guess. I have all the Japanese saws I need (three) and hope to live another sixty years. I actually mentioned my interest in old saws to the local old tools guy and he revealed that he's got a fair stock hidden somewhere, he just doesn't bother displaying them because they don't sell! Of course I don't yet know the quality of his saws - there might be a damn good reason why they don't sell - but I'll find out soon.

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

i had started to write a detailed thread of different saws and hang angles and their uses with pics (had my daughter helping organising all the pics), that was taking a while, i still had quite a bit to go when Paul put the clip up, he's good at putting clips up ...so i quit writing the thread and deleted it, no point doing things like that that take too much time when its easier to watch pauls clips, even if they do have things wrong imo, its close enough to save me the bother!
cheers
chippy

Nooooooooooo!!!!

Give us the ozzie version !!

I think it shows the differences in the relationship between handle and blade ... but I had a vague feeling that I wasn't entirely sure about his explanation.

He seems to assume that your hand will stay at the same angle, and so the saw angle will change. Another option would be that the saw (toothline) angle stays the same and your hand changes angle. Maybe the truth is in between somewhere?

Pul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

.......He seems to assume that your hand will stay at the same angle, and so the saw angle will change. Another option would be that the saw (toothline) angle stays the same and your hand changes angle. Maybe the truth is in between somewhere?

Of course you can twist your wrist down or up a little, we have to do it all the time. It's a minor concern on short cuts, but it's more tiring to be forced to saw with your wrist out of line on long cuts, because it takes more muscular effort to hold your wrist flexed or extended than in the neutral position. You also have reduced control, I think. Seems like pretty basic premises to me that efficiency is improved if the angle of the grip is set so that you can deliver all or most of the power stroke with your wrist in the 'centre' position. Efficiency should also be improved if the vertical placement of the handle allows you to deliver the power as close as practical to straight along the tooth line. All handles are a compromise, because of the different cuts the saw will be expected to make, and the different sizes of users, not to mention the size of the saw itself determining how a handle can be attached. You could spend a lot of time trying to figure out the perfect grip angle & position of a saw handle, but unless you wish to make a handle or three yourself, the easiest path is probably to scratch around 'til you find saws that just feel right to you.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Of course you can twist your wrist down or up a little, we have to do it all the time. It's a minor concern on short cuts, but it's more tiring to be forced to saw with your wrist out of line on long cuts, because it takes more muscular effort to hold your wrist flexed or extended than in the neutral position. You also have reduced control, I think. Seems like pretty basic premises to me that efficiency is improved if the angle of the grip is set so that you can deliver all or most of the power stroke with your wrist in the 'centre' position. Efficiency should also be improved if the vertical placement of the handle allows you to deliver the power as close as practical to straight along the tooth line. All handles are a compromise, because of the different cuts the saw will be expected to make, and the different sizes of users, not to mention the size of the saw itself determining how a handle can be attached. You could spend a lot of time trying to figure out the perfect grip angle & position of a saw handle, but unless you wish to make a handle or three yourself, the easiest path is probably to scratch around 'til you find saws that just feel right to you.....

Cheers,

hand saws use some different (or extra) dynamics to what you might be used to with tenon/back saws Ian. a few things you have back the front..in fact i think it fair to say for many tasks a (hand and crosscut) saw with a steeper pitch hang angle is more efficient, they wouldn't of made them and we wouldn't have used them (happily) for the past hundred years if they wernt efficient, for a number of jobs you just cant beat them, that chap in the vid seems to misunderstand to some degree as well, for more reasons than one it would appear he only uses saws in occasional circumstances and for light duty work or he would better appreciate a saw with a more affirmative hang angle. just because the pitch is greater doesn't mean you are required to saw with your wrist flexed/twisted up or down (except to get started etc), you saw with your wrist in the most natural position, of course, but keeping it there requires more muscle effort the steeper the hang angle of the handle/saw gets and the longer time (deeper into the cit) you are sawing (not that you notice too much with a sharp saw), so a novice or someone that isn't toned up muscularly might (will) feel the strain on the forearm after a while and feel it something severe after sawing for an hour or half the day, but you soon get over that, you will saw through far more timber given the same time allotted, on average, with a saw using a steeper hang angle than one without, a flatter hang has some other advantages but they can also put quite a strain on your forearm if not your whole arm and shoulder after a short time once they start to dull (less efficient position), you will often notice a user start to rock a saw while he is cutting, digging the heel of the saw in, in an attempt to cut better (actually mimicking what a higher handle pitch does), that can wear you out in a very unpleasant way. you can certainly cut very accurately with a steep handle pitch but a lesser pitch does give some added control making it easier to cut square through wide timber, not entirely because of the hang but also some type of saw blades used on them lend themselves to that in addition, in most cases a steep hang is best on saws with around 7ppi, usually for that size work efficiency and speed of cut is important. there are a number of situations when a lower hang is more beneficial but its usually always worth having some

cheers
chippy

Chips, I think I failed to make myself clear - I am in full agreement with what you say. I was just trying to give a general idea of how a handle needs to be oriented, without getting into the details of the actual hang angles, while accepting that you can't always use a saw while holding it in the ideal position, so occasionally, you will find yourself sawing with your wrist cocked at a less than comfy angle. Indeed, the 'hang angles' for bench saws are & should be different from those on large saws most often used with the job under your knee. If I'm settling in to a long rip cut down a thick board, I most certainly want a handle like you describe - I have no desire to re-invent saw handles. As you say, the handle designs & orientations arrived at by the late 19th century don't leave much room for 'improvement'!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by snafuspyramid

I have time on my side, I guess. I have all the Japanese saws I need (three) and hope to live another sixty years. I actually mentioned my interest in old saws to the local old tools guy and he revealed that he's got a fair stock hidden somewhere, he just doesn't bother displaying them because they don't sell! Of course I don't yet know the quality of his saws - there might be a damn good reason why they don't sell - but I'll find out soon.

Snaf ... I had a look through my 'outside saws' for the plastic handled ones. I found several that could make reasonable saws I think ... not that the handles would be lovely. Sandvik, Disston, and Spear&Jackson.

I guess I should add these to the list of being tidied up.

Cheers,
Paul

2012-10-08 16.42.15.jpg

Hi, the taper grind was never put on back saws, the taper grind is only useful on a hand saw, so that the set of the teeth could be less (narrower kerf, less effort to cut due to smaller / thinner cutting area). Most new saws these days have a very large set to the teeth which makes it easier to correct bad sawing practice.

A thick plate for a back saw (tenon saw) just means a wider kerf. The up side is that the saw is more likely to run true and straight. European saws (push saws) always have a wider plate to stop buckling as the effort of sawing puts the blade under compression. The Asian saws (pull saws) can be thinner as the blade is only put under tension which will keep even a flexible blade straight.

To clean off rust, the best way is to use an old semi blunt chisel or a stanley knife with the blade set for scraping. This will get most of the rust off leaving a pretty smooth surface (don't push so hard as to scratch the bright metal).
Then follow up with some 600 grit paper. Will leave it pretty shiney.
Don't use a wire brush in the angle grinder as it can cause hot spots on the blade, losing temper and causing it to buckle (like I did a few years ago).

All the best!

Originally Posted by spoinky

...Hi, the taper grind was never put on back saws............

There seems to be different opinions about that, Spoinky.

Cheers,

Henry Disston Model 77 Large Tenon Saw

Maybe not "never" ... but "rarely" ???

"Made for mechanics, not botchers." Gotta love that. Don't hold back, tell us what you really think Henry.

Paul

"Never" - Ooops! forgot the No77. Never seen one in the flesh, so forgot about them.

The disston back saws I have (No4)
8" 10" 12" 12" 12" 14" 14" 16" 22" 26" - all ranging from 1880's to 1960's. Most from about 1896-1917.
All with different PPI with an even mixture of crosscut and rip profile.
All of these guys have parallel blades, and when set and sharpened, cut very sweetly.