Thread: First jack plane for an apprentice carpenter?

I wouldn't bother with #1 nor #2 - everything you've heard about a modern Stanley applies equally to a modern Irwin/Record.

You've left a Clifton No.5 off your list - but it's up there with the Lie-Nielsen cost-wise.

Personally, I'd revisit the second hand option. All the new planes are heavy (heavy can be good or bad depending on what you're using it for). And you don't need a high quality plane for what is essentially a jack plane.

Cheers, Vann.

Welcome to the forum Ken
First up, Kunz, Veritas and Lie-Nielsen are very nice planes.
But if I brought a Lie-Nielsen to school, I will be too scared that it will be nicked.
I think your trainer is right about buying 2nd hand. Learn how to refurbish and sharpen a plane is a good skill. Try ebay.
I've bought a few. Some of them needed a bit of work and some needed a lot of work.
You can also go to sunday markets and have a look around.
This forum quite often has some for sale.
Good luck.

Hi Ken

I agree that 2nd hand is the way to go.

I wouldn't buy from eBay unless you know the seller - all kinds of junk get put up there, and the postage on a plane can be pretty spendy if you get a plane that is a potato chip in terms of flatness.

I would go to an HTPAA (since you are in Victoria) tool sale and get one that has been looked after - avoid the rarities, just ask for a good user and check that the sole is flat (toe, mouth and tail all line up) with a straight edge. I see that their next sale is on Sunday week, so you're in luck :
HTPAA :: Tool Sales

Also, the hardest part of restoring a plane can be dealing with a plane blade that is not flat on the back and has rust pits all over. Avoid that by buying a new replacement blade (and cap iron if necessary). Put your money on the thing that does the cutting! On that, I prefer the specialist replacement blades and not current Stanley etc. - Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, Hock, IBC (from Jim Davey) etc are all good. The steel is often somewhat thicker, which is generally a good thing, but it may cause a problem in two areas:
1. the thicker blade may make it harder for the yoke on the adjuster to engage with the cap iron, so the adjuster doesn't work properly; and/or
2. the blade may take up too much of the mouth (i.e tighten the mouth too much), so that shavings jam up the mouth too much.

There are easy workarounds for both of these, but just don't go for too much extra beef in the blade.

Hi Ken
Next HTPAA sale is the way to go. Should be about 100 planes that would suit you.
I'd have a look at a #4 1/2 Turner or five if you want (50 to 80 bucks).
Get a set of Titan 136's too (light tang bevelled firmers)!!
Dick

Originally Posted by kenour

looking at new planes, specifically a #5 for general use, I see there are a few options out there (please let me know if I've missed anything worth looking at!).

1) Bailey Jack Plane #5 (by Stanley) - About $179
From all accounts (the ones I've heard/read anyway) this is rubbish. Can apparently be tuned to be a passable tool, but I would like a winner out of the box if possible.

2) Irwin #5 Jack Plane (by Record) - About $229
I don't hear much, some people have said they swear by their old Record planes, but haven't seem much about this guy in particular.

I wouldn't waste my money or time

Originally Posted by kenour

3) WoodRiver #5 Jack Plane V3 - About $290
Have heard some good things about them, but mainly by people who have them available for sale.

Jim Davey sells these along with refurbished old Stanley's.
Jim is a member of the forums.
You could do a far lot worse than dealing with Jim

Originally Posted by kenour

4) Kunz #5 Hand Plane - About $349
German engineering sounds good, but can find very little about them for real world use.

I know almost nothing about these

Originally Posted by kenour

5) Veritas Customisable Jack Plane (by Lee Valley) - About LOT$ (I assume, not sold here as far as I can tell, looks to be around $500+ to get it in)

6) Lie-Nielsen No. 5 Jack Plane - About $579
Yeah well, what can you say, it's an LN, I'm sure if I went this route I would be rather happy!

an option you have not listed is the LN 610 Low angle Jack rabbet plane USD $245, AUD $449 from Henry Eckert in Adelaide. Henry tries to price match with direct personal importing from Maine.


comment
why does a carpentry apprentice need a jack plane?
what are you expected to do with the plane?
if it's to learn how to fettle one and sharpen the blade, then almost all of your options, except for nos 1 and 2, would mean you didn't learn that skill.

I think you need to understand why you need the plane before you purchase one.

I agree with the why would you be 'required' to have a jack plane. I use my block plane to chamfer an edge quite often as you stated, but why a jack plane? Or are you doing a carpentry apprenticeship focusing on joinery? In which case that's awesome (not the sort of thing you hear about regularly)

If it's for a carpentry apprenticeship in general construction, them I could (unless of coarse it's something you really want) suggest you save your cash for other tools that would be used every day

Just my thoughts

Gab

Originally Posted by ian

comment
why does a carpentry apprentice need a jack plane?

Originally Posted by kenour

So, first week of trade school this week, and we've been given our tool list...

Anyway, one of the tools on the list is a hand plane. They recommend a jack plane for general use.

C'mon guys. Ken can't very well go on the course and tell his tutor that he doesn't know what he's talking about. If the tutor says get a handplane, Ken needs to get a handplane.

Originally Posted by kenour

...I plan on getting into more joinery type work at home in the future, so don't mind spending more an a number 5 at this point (in for a penny!)..

I go back to what I said in my earlier post, get a secondhand No.5 for your first handplane. Look for a Stanley or Record with flat top irons, they're older (= probably better), or a Falcon-Pope or Turner. Curved top irons are newer (on Stanleys and Records). Keep away from Anant, Abhor and various other low quality brands.

If you like the idea of a new plane, save your pennies for a new smoother, as a second handplane - that's where the precision of a modern, well engineered handplane will be appreciated. But first get well into your course - you may find you hate handplaning - and you can save the money. You may find you love it and want the best handplane money can buy.

And again, wait until you're well into your course before you go out a buy new irons for your No.5.

That's my tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.

Ken, l've brought these planes which are "woodrivers" but different name, (Luban) Jason runs the business and is very helpful, very fast postage, and good prices.

l used the planes on some old messmate timber, and they went really well, blades need a good sharpen first up and the bed flattened but any new plane needs that checked out.

Luban No. 4 Smoothing Hand Plane by Qiangsheng Tools Co. - Fine Tools Australia

Luban No. 5 Jack Hand Plane by Qiangsheng Tools Co. - Fine Tools Australia

Luban No. 5 1/2 Hand Plane by Qiangsheng Tools Co. - Fine Tools Australia

plus spare blades.

Replacement Blade for No. 4 and No 5. Bench Planes - Fine Tools Australia

Replacement Blade for No. 4 1/2, 5 1/2, 6 and 7 Bench Planes - Fine Tools Australia


l must admit l ended up buying a spare blade from "tools from japan" which is a great blade but more expensive, holds an excellent edge, cheap postage from Japan, and a great guy to deal with (ex-pat)

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...oducts_id=1689

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...oducts_id=1690

Regards
Stevo

Hi Ken

What you want is a Stanley #5 that is pre-WWII. I would look for a USA-or UK-made version as these are more reliable than the Australian made planes. Expect to pay about $75-100 for the plane. All the other planes - WoodRiver, LN, Clifton, etc - are a total waste of money in this situation (good planes, however, just not now).

A clean #5 is a good all rounder. Stick in a 8-9" radius blade, and it works to rough out boards. Add a straight blade, and you have a long smoother or a short jointer.

If you want a "fancier" version of the #5, then look for a Stanley #605, which is the Bed Rock version. However, these will cost at least double, and available only from the USA ebay.

Regards from Perth

Derek

A 4 1/2 is not a Jack plane a 5 is.
A post war Stanley made in Oz, Canada, USA or England would be accurate enough for shop use and study enough to take on site.
The English ones started to die once they got the extra strengthening ribs on the body.
The U.S. once they lost the Rosewood handles but these would be delicate for chucking in a site box anyway.
Stanly here in Oz made a decent plane up to the 70s.
They really fell over with the split 'Y' lever and the joggled lateral lever.
Dont buy any Oz made plane with a die cast frog, that includes Pope, Turner and Stanley.
The plastic handles Turner introduced aren't pretty or particular comfortable but will survive better than pretty Rosewood.
My mid 60 Stanley 5 my Dad bought me when I started my Patternmaking Apprenticeship had Oz hardwood handles and was a good solid plane.
The guys at work did a collective groan when I fronted with it.
For Patternmaking a 4 or 6 was of more use that a Jack of all trades.
Go to the HPTA sale there the 5 is nearly as common as the 4, you can't give them away at the Sydney sale nowadays.
H.

Originally Posted by Vann

C'mon guys. Ken can't very well go on the course and tell his tutor that he doesn't know what he's talking about. If the tutor says get a handplane, Ken needs to get a handplane.

but Vann,

Ken does need to know why his tutor wants him to get a hand plane and what the hand plane will be used for.

from our posts most of us are box and furniture makers. this definitely colours our view of what a plane is used for.

If the purpose of buying a hand plane is mostly for the tutor to demonstrate to the new chums that, for a carpenter, a power planer is the tool to use, any $10 garage sale plane will do -- the number being largely irrelevant.

However, if the purpose is to demonstrate that for some tasks, a hand plane is the preferred tool, then a more upmarket tool is probably warranted.
possibly going as far upmarket as a LN #610 Jack Rabbet Plane -- which can be used to widen or square up rebates (think door jams and window sills) -- might be in order.

Given the hundreds of dollars difference in price between the extremes, Ken needs to know before spending his money.

It might be that the block plane Ken already owns qualifies as a hand plane for the tutor's purposes.
It might be that the tutor thinks every carpenter should have a rusty hand plane taking up space at the bottom of the tool box, in which case ANY new or decent old plane would be a waste of money.

Gotta agree about second hand Stanleys. I'll put it this way... I started out buying Lie Nielsen and Veritas planes. I don't mean to sound like a tool here, but, frankly, I can afford to use them. Since then I have actually sold numerous LN and Veritas planes with the deliberate intention of replacing them with vintage stanleys, and not even necessarily super nice stanleys. In my opinion, the pre-ww2 stanley planes are the best tool ever made for the job they perform, and LN and Veritas are just taking their ideas and creating the same thing on more modern machinery.

My AU$0.02

Cheers,
Luke

i am interested in what type of apprenticeship scheme Ken is indentured under (and how cheap is TAFE now! don't they have their own tools while your attending? always used to, even when i instructed there for a little while), they have a number of types nowadays, pre-types that are begun even while in high school, or a seperate singular option to make it more appealing for an employer to employ because he doesn't lose his worker for one day a week or a few weeks in block times. or is it is an apprenticeship for a builders association, for example like the "master builders association' scheme where they indenture an apprentice and then hire out them out to tradesmen (rates vary depending on what year the apprentice has under his belt), or whether indentured to a qualified carpenter as a one on one basis.

i remember the list of tools the school gave me back a looong time ago! and also seen it from my own apprentices. but i just threw it in the bin, theirs as well, and told my apprentices what they needed . but that was because i was indentured to a person, not a company that hires out, or some of the new schemes they have now where someone does the school part first, designed to make it more appealing and easier to get a job with a qualified carpenter (he doesn't need to worry about being short staffed which can be inconvenient ). if indentured to a person/employer/carpenter then you get what he tells you too, end of story, doesn't mean you can't get extras though.

there are many posts and recommendations above and most all have some merit, no one perfect plane if you can only afford a single plane. personally while a #5 is a very good choice a very good argument for a #4 can be made. on site rouging down or reducing dimensions you are probably going to use your power plane for speed (though the #4 can be used as a scrub as well), a number 4 or 5 for working on exposed rafters, carport beams, some window work and a few other things, easier to used overhead as well. the 4 is little more handy when doing second fix work too imo, OVMV. with either of them you want a couple of spare blades ground with different radius to make them more versatile. a #4 takes less space in your kit as well. the #5 rebate is also an excellent choice and very versatile.

i can see why some folk are advising the old stanleys, if its in good shape or you know how to get do the work to set it that way it will do the job (kinda need to learn that regardless), i used them for years, thats all there was, apart from more expensive infill planes (norris spiers etc). as a smoother the added weight of the infill is an advantage in many instances (more on the joinery side of things that you mentioned you would like to do at home). and although i see and don't entirely disagree with Lukes approach, there are some drawbacks to simply not buying the best you can afford (e.g. LN or Clifton, there ARE differences ).

second hand stanley if you trust the seller or see it in person and can't afford the new planes, the old stanleys have the aesthetics and if in good nick, set up properly will handle most jobs. however a LN or (possibly a clone, woodriver or such- i don't have them so can't advise if they are as good as the LN-they may well be) a clifton plane are the more expensive choices but will last a lifetime and do have some advantages, they are heavier (particularly good for smoothing difficult grain), not as brittle (as old cast steel), a bit more comfy imo, in particular the clifton, the cliftons have that same curved traditional look as a most recognised stanley planes that i personally like (though the early bedrocks were squared off sides like LN), LN are squared of which doesn't appeal to me (they appeal to others so its just a personal thing) and the smaller LN in bronze look sickly to me but have their pro's and cons.

However, in function, due to heavier weight of LN and Cliftons planes compared to old stanleys. and the increased blade thickness they do work better in some situations. the clifton is choice imo, many folk just go LN ,their easier to get and more available, more widely advertised as well . the clifton you would probably have to send away for but has a thicker blade again than the LN (3.6mm vs 3.18mm- which does make a difference, especially compared to a old stanley blade, more time between sharpenings and less chance of chatter).

the clifton chipbreaker design is a great design as well imo, regardless of the nay sayers you read around the net. their technique for setting it up is flawed which is why many have trouble and i have plenty of clifton's (as well as stanley, pre- and post war, turner, and LN and probably a few others) and all my clifton back irons work and fit perfectly, if one was a little loose for some reason (which has not been my experience, but i have heard it on the net) it is a two minute job to remedy and never have the problem again. the blades are O1 steel which is easier to hone which is advantage especially on site (A2 takes more work and doesn't get as keen an edge, not having to remove the back iron makes it much quicker and easier as well, you don't need to disconnect the whole back iron, so it goes back in exactly the same place which just saves time and effort not having to reset your plane. don't worry about any you hear about the screw to hold the back iron on, one doesn't need it knurled, although its never recommend its a fact that you use tend to use the cap iron to tighten the screw, never ever had a problem doing that .

also O1 steel gets a sharper edge than A2, so if you went the LN path get an O1 blade option, better still get a clifton blade and back iron to go on the LN (makes it real expensive though). advantage of a LN is they have multiple degree frogs but its just a matter of having the (or a spare blade) blade set with a back bevel to do the same job. an expensive way (kinda outrageous way is to fettle the LN frog to fit a clifton plane)

cheers
chippy

Hi Chippy

Good point about the ductile iron of the LV and LN being more robust than the old Stanley planes, which are the fragile grey iron. Clifton have a different process but are also reported to be capable of withstanding a drop. The old Stanley just crack or break. I imagine that the life of a plane on the job site is quite a lot more torturous than in a workshop. You may, however, need to drop about 4 or 5 Stanleys to be in front in terms of cost layout

The issue of A2 vs O1 steel is another matter. It is very much dependent on the honing medium. Given the appropriate media, A2 will last twice as long as O1 and get as sharp. I have been running Clifton O1 and LN A2 blades alongside one another in a LN #3 for some time. The Clifton O1 hones quicker but the LN A2 produces as fine an edge and lasts much longer. (I use Spyderco ceramic stones, which are as hard and durable as oil stones. Used with a dribble of water, or dry). I would advise A2 steel - is is more abrasion resistant, which is relevant with Oz timbers.

Regards from Perth

Derek