Thread: Japanese chisels

Sinjin

I have a set of Japanese chisels, some of which I bought in Japan about 35 years ago, which are very nice tools. I still use these chisels as they are very satisfying tools. However, I now only use these on the softer woods, and use LN for cabinet work and a mix of Titan, Marples, Stanley,Ward & one Berg, for carpentry. Japanese chisels can be used very effectively for paring harder woods without a hammer, but I have found even then, a brief lapse in concentration and an error in technique can cause an edge to chip.

Regards

I think i'm with you...i started using them some 30 yrs ago as well i think. I guess i'm just a bit over the very time consuming sharpening if you get little chips.
I think i might look at some Neilson or even the Two cherries for general hard hitting.

Where would one learn about using chisels in such a way as to avoid chipping and then the need to resharpen chisels?

Originally Posted by simonmags

Where would one learn about using chisels in such a way as to avoid chipping and then the need to resharpen chisels?

unfortunately every one is after "scary sharp" chisels, this is of little use when bashing out a mortise or belting in a rebate, this action requires a "stable" attack angle on the chisel face, one that is sharp enough but not too thin as to break when aggressively used, just back off your angle on the cutting edge a couple of degrees and you will find it will dull but not chip! keep the "scary sharp's" for shaving your wrist's!

Hi Dave, thanks for the tip, so i take it from that post that having only a solid 25 degree bevel on a chisel and then hitting into some wood will cause chips etc in a new chisel of pretty much any quality (I have some composite handle japanese chisels from carbatech).

So the secondary bevel is really for when biting further into wood to prevent chips? Is that about right? I am sure this would be discussed in detail somewhere on the web, just not sure which source would be informative and authorative.

I use the Japanese composite handle chisels from carbatech sinjin, and they chipped a little, when i used the wooden mallett on something I would consider a well aged softwood. To simply chisel out two 25 x 25mm by 8mm deep hole.

Cheers

Originally Posted by simonmags

Hi Dave, thanks for the tip, so i take it from that post that having only a solid 25 degree bevel on a chisel and then hitting into some wood will cause chips etc in a new chisel of pretty much any quality (I have some composite handle japanese chisels from carbatech).

So the secondary bevel is really for when biting further into wood to prevent chips? Is that about right? I am sure this would be discussed in detail somewhere on the web, just not sure which source would be informative and authorative.

I use the Japanese composite handle chisels from carbatech sinjin, and they chipped a little, when i used the wooden mallett on something I would consider a well aged softwood. To simply chisel out two 25 x 25mm by 8mm deep hole.

Cheers

yep roughly correct, the chisels really dont like being "bashed" into solid stuff, if it can be gently coerced into doing as it's told all the better, any chisel will chip as it strikes almost any surface with force, gently does it is the order of the day, small bites and not too much force, aggression will not win the day, I have an old chisel about a 1" I think, old English jobby probably 100 years old which I keep just as a "basher" it has an edge on it that would trip up a bull in full flight, wouldn't shave a gnats backside but I can really lay into it for mortice's, haven't chipped it yet, I keep my jap chisels for fine finishing work, just looking at them will cut you! but the finer the edge (the sharper) the more risk of chipping

Originally Posted by simonmags

....So the secondary bevel is really for when biting further into wood to prevent chips? Is that about right? I am sure this would be discussed in detail somewhere on the web, just not sure which source would be informative and authorative.

Secondary bevels do two things: 1) Reduce the amount of metal that needs to be removed to create or restore a sharp edge, & 2) create a less acute (= "stronger") edge.

Metal chips because it's brittle. Unfortunately, toughness & brittleness are hard to separate, though they are separate properties. Japanese chisels use steel that is several units of hardness higher, & since it's a logarithmic scale, that means the edge is quite a bit harder & more brittle than 'Western' blades.

Now, I've got some lovely old 'New Haven Edge Tool Co' chisels that are as hard as glass. I grind them to a fine angle & use them for hand paring only, like Basilq says, even that cn cause a chip if I'm careless, but in general, they hold a good edge. My recently-acquired LNs seem about as hard, but are a different alloy, & far less prone to chipping. I've kept them at the factory recommended 30 deg bevel, with just the hint of a secondary bevel, & so far they've stood up to pretty heavy work. One chisel, the 1/2", if I recall, was a bit crumbly at first, & I was wondering if I had a dud, but after some heavy-duty honing to clean it up, it has performed flawlessly ever since. Various people have said on this forum that HSS can be like this at first.

Recently, I acquired an old Buck bros chisel, which has relatively soft steel (you can just get a file to mark the sides, unlike the NHs). I thought someone must have cooked it, but it took a nice edge, and seems to hold it very well - so it has toughness without brittleness. I also have several Hock plane blades that are softer than my HSS ones, and easier to sharpen & hone, yet hold their edge almost as well (& certainly better than original Stanley/Record blades which SEEM to be just as hard). So really, I'm quite confused about steel hardness - it doesn't always follow the rules!

Cheers,

So my question is how many have their Japanese chisels purely for softwoods and use something like Lie Neilsons or whatever for hardwoods.

Hi Sinjin

It's the other way around for me. I have Japanese chisels for the hardwoods! They handle this best of all, keep a sharp edge longer, and are designed specifically for chopping.

An edge is more likely to chip when new when the heat treating has left it brittle. Grinding back to correctly tempered steel leaves a really tough chisel, since the soft backing iron absorbs a lot of the impact stresses. By-and-large we are talking about a thickish blade, which has a thickish iron support.

I do have thinner Japanese chisels, which are used for paring. They are ground at a lower bevel angle (25 degrees). Since these are never struck, they experience different stresses.

I am currently alo using a set of vintage Stanely #750s in both hard and soft wood. They do not hold an edge as long and the blades will fold (rather than chip) after a while (when used for chopping), but they are fun and so I put up with the lowered durability. The point is, there are few chisels that have the durability of Japanese around. Whether you actually like using them is another issue altogether - different horses for different courses.

Regards from Perth

Derek