Thread: How often should a saw be 'jointed'?

If I can simply dwell on the jointing aspect for a moment rather than become lured into a whole hand saw filing debate, , I suspect we are making the same mistake as seems increasingly to occur in so many arenas today of implying that "one size fits all." Allan Gant has a lot to answer for and in particular to a long time friend of mine who maintained life was a lot less interesting after pantyhose! I digress. Apologies:

There are clearly at least two, maybe three, distinct scenarios. Let us assume, in the first instance, you have a brand new saw or one that has been properly sharpened and the teeth are already sharp and in good order. After a period of use they will become dull and the cutting performance will taper off. Much will depend on the type of timber and the abrasiveness of that timber as to when that will occur. You may go a long time in Radiata Pine but not for very long at all in Ironbark to quote two timbers that are at opposite ends of the spectrum (although not right at either end before that entices further debate and inevitable digression ). At this point the leading edge of each tooth will start to become noticeable as a "silver line" on a crosscut style saw and the top of the tooth on a ripsaw will exhibit the same noticeable line. It is at this point that the teeth should be "touched up" with one or maybe two light strokes of the file. Jointing should be unnecessary. The only change will be that you have removed a microscopic amount of "set" and you will have lowered the tooth an even more microscopic amount. A similar operation can arguably be performed several times in this way until you become aware that the saw is begining to bind in the cut.That is the point I would suggest that the saw should be jointed, reset and sharpened. The jointing operation at this point should be light and minimal.

The second scenario is where you inherit or purchase a saw that clearly has dental issues. Ian's "cows and calves", unequal pitch and almost any other abomination you can think of down to the ultimate missing tooth. Now you need to joint heavily until every tooth has that shiny flat spot, reshape the teeth, set and sharpen. You may even need to joint (lightly this time), set and sharpen a second time depending on the degradation of the original teeth and to some extent your own level of skill. Or you can partly joint and shape and then joint and shape again as in the article quoted below.

Just recently I had occasion to read up on such matters in the pursuit of a related subject and turned up this from a Disston Saw and File publication of about 1921, although the same information appeared in other Disston publications both before and after this time.
Saw care. Jointing.jpg


I also chanced on this snippet from "Saw Dictionary; A Builder's Guide" by the author, Charles L Johnson and it then leads me on to the method of jointing. This one featured in the article is an easily made device from a piece of scrap hardwood and most references recommend that to ensure the file is held flat to the tooth edge some sort of device is employed.

Taintor jointing.png

I like the reference to poverty and laziness in the second last sentence.I also took particular note of the recommendation to grind one face of your file to make it smooth so that a fine jointing can be achieved. My own belief is that this is unnecessary and the same effect can be achieved by using either a slightly worn smooth cut file or a fine small file (my preference). However, the principle is the same. This is my version of the above 1909 shop made effort. I copied it shamelessly from Andy Lovelock (thanks Andy).

P1040924 (Medium).JPGP1040925 (Medium).JPGP1040926 (Medium).JPGP1040927 (Medium).JPG

It holds a 12" file, which is retained by grub screws threaded into the Ironbark body and pressing on a protective clamp of timber (not directly onto the file). It can only be used if the handle is off the saw or it is one of the old regular depth models as the jointer body becomes obstructed by the handle.

This is the jointer recommended by the Disston article above. Note the comment "when the teeth become irregular in size, it is absolutely necessary to dress them down until all are of an equal height." However I offer the suggestion that the oldtimers did not get everything right! In this instance I feel they were on the money.

Disston saw jointer.png

Here are another couple of commercial jointing devices. One from Simonds (at least I think it is. Simonds used an identical model but they may have borrowed it and called it their own. They did this with the Taintor saw set.):

Simonds Jointer (2).jpg

and another from Pike (as in the mummy's boy character in Dad's Army )

P1040921 (Medium).JPGP1040923 (Medium).JPG

I really like this one as it has a leaf spring to keep everything in place. The Ebay seller commented that he had no idea what it was but if you are interested in bidding you will know. He was right on the money. The commercial devices all appear to be relatively short and use small lengths of a file. If you make your own it can be any length you like.

Regards
Paul

PS: Having extreme difficulties loading pix. Will try to rectify asap. Have had to correct this post into double figures so sorry if you saw gobbledegook. Now it is just my gobbledegook. Internet crashes on me and lasts for only 5 to 10 minutes at a time. Hopefully I have fixed up the vast majority of errors now.

Originally Posted by McNulty

......What I don’t hear a lot of is side dressing, which I do lightly. Gives me a nice straight edge of the cut timber.....

Alan, do you mean you get no score-marks on the cut surface, or a straight cut?

I guess side-dressing can deliver both. I side-dressed when I started sharpening because my saws always veered to one side or another. As I got more consistent, that sort of 'correction' became unecessary, so it's been a while since I've stoned the sides of teeth. I'm not that concerned about a few light score-marks on saw-cuts, the cut surfaces are not going to be visible 80% of the time, & if they will be, no saw cut will ever be good enough, so those cuts would always be followed up by shooting or some other clean-up process.

Setting probably doesn't get the attention it deserves. In theory, a pliers-type set should deliver the exact same set on every tooth, as long as you place it so the plunger hits every tooth at precisely the same point. At first, I didn't fully appreciate how much care & concentration setting needs, so my teeth were a bit wild.

Cheers,

Score marks on the cut surface.
I was unlucky enough to be reasonable at sharpening saws as an apprentice and it was one of my duties to touch up all the saws, 5 tradesmen, I hated it.
Panel saws were the only ones i dressed, the neater the cut the less planing/ shooting That had to be done.
My sharpening was more to do with production more than perfection.
I have recently (last5 years) started re furbishing saws and enjoying it.
Thanks for all posters who show an interest, need to keep this skill alive
Alan

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Simonds Jointer (2).jpg

and another from Pike (as in the mummy's boy character in Dad's Army )

P1040921 (Medium).JPGP1040923 (Medium).JPG

I really like this one as it has a leaf spring to keep everything in place. The Ebay seller commented that he had no idea what it was but if you are interested in bidding you will know. He was right on the money. The commercial devices all appear to be relatively short and use small lengths of a file. If you make your own it can be any length you like.

Regards
Paul

PS: Having extreme difficulties loading pix. Will try to rectify asap. Have had to correct this post into double figures so sorry if you saw gobbledegook. Now it is just my gobbledegook. Internet crashes on me and lasts for only 5 to 10 minutes at a time. Hopefully I have fixed up the vast majority of errors now.

Agree with everything you said - though I'll probably joint less often than the average person would, as would anyone who has a good idea of what they're doing. The setting, you can't avoid, but I don't generally set a saw until it tells me that I have to, either.

The issue with jointing isn't that it's sometimes a good thing to do, but rather than it's often asserted that it must be done every time. A person sharpening their own saws should develop a sense of when it needs to be done.

The jointing tools being short isn't by choice - I think the manufacturers knew enough not to lead people down the road of trying to make an edge more than relatively or perhaps breasted to a local 5 inch or so section. More than that creates unnecessary work.

The best saw for a new filer to sharpen is one that's already in good shape.

Different discussions than this for a buck saw with certain tooth patterns (and rakers, etc). then geometry becomes much more critical to the function of the saw. The state that I'm in was pretty much clear cut end to end 150 years ago, but I cannot find any saws of that type to play with. Modernity hit hard here - my grandparents had zero interest in nostaglic things, embraced modernity and threw everything away that tortured them in their childhood and young adult life.

Originally Posted by D.W.

........ The issue with jointing isn't that it's sometimes a good thing to do, but rather than it's often asserted that it must be done every time. A person sharpening their own saws should develop a sense of when it needs to be done....

I think that sums it up concisely & precisely.

Originally Posted by D.W.

........ The best saw for a new filer to sharpen is one that's already in good shape....

But not sharp..

Cheers,