Thread: Lie Neilsen or Veritas PMV 11 chisels

Chook, one thing to consider is the big difference in size (particularly the handles) between the LNs & the Veritas. The LNs could be called dainty, which doesn't suit everyone - that could affect your choice! I happen to like the size of the LNs very much (I have a set of A2s, not O1), but I know folks who think they are toys.

O1 is good stuff, and when well forged it makes excellent edges that are easy to hone, but it would seem they are no match for PMV11, if half of what we read is true. The PMV11 takes a little more effort to sharpen, but not all that much, it seems.

I used bevel edge chisels for mortising for many years, because I couldn't afford a set of the 'real' mortising chisels I wanted. BE will do the job, but 'real' mortising chisels make it considerably easier, imo...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by chook

I am going to buy some new chisels and the choice comes down to 5 Lie Nielsen 01 tool steel socket chisels for $340
O-1 Tool Steel 5 pc Bevel Edge Chisel Set

or
5 Veritas PMV 11 chisels for about $360 (depending on the exchange rate)
Veritas® PM-V11™ Bench Chisels - Lee Valley Tools

I am sure that both sets are better than just well made and would both do a wonderful job. I cannot get both sets at the moment, so what do I buy?

There is no postage involved for the Veritas chisels since my daughter will bring them home with her from America when she visits, so the actual price the two sets is very close. But even if there was a bit of a difference, considering the length of time you are married to a set of chisels, price is not going to be the deciding factor.

Lastly, I am considering getting some mortising chisels. But if I get either of these sets would mortising chisels be redundant?

Chook
when you are considering what the exchange rate is doing compare this to Carbatecs pm-v11 set $571 or there abouts + freight , still seems like a saving of $200 , I seem to remember derek doing a review on the Veritas Bench chisel set a while ago might they be another option



Glenn

The pmv11 issue half kills the points in this quote ... but it might still be of interest ...

(There's a little something in here to annoy everybody with one aspect or another ... Evenfall Woodworks » Edge Tool Sharpness and Flatness, The Fast Track.)

A-2 like any Steel, has a particular molecular structure. In A-2, the hardening process forms carbide particles in the steel which has a high wear resistance. It will stay sharp longer than that of other steels, but it will require you to sharpen it at usually no less than a 35 degree bevel angle in order to maintain an edge that won’t fail. In other words, If you attempt bevels of 30 degrees or less with A-2, the effect will often result in the edge failing and crumbling. This is due to the very carbides that form to make it wear resistant. It also takes longer to sharpen than High Carbon, or O-1 Steel. As such, this steel is not the best choice for low bevel angles where paring is desired. A-2 is far better lasting where the tooling will be struck with a hammer like in mortising, or for people who prefer a lot of chopping with their bench chisels, or when used to plane in abrasive woods like many tropical hardwoods.
O-1 and high carbon steels are considered finer grained and do not form these carbides in them in the same way A-2 does. As such, these steels are able to hold a shallower bevel angle than A-2 commonly can without edge failure, they sharpen faster, some feel they sharpen finer, and lend themselves well to shallower bevel angles that works well with paring and lighter impact work that is common with many american hardwoods.
in any case, watch your edges. If you find them failing it is usually some combination of the steel type and wood hardness coming to loggerheads with the style of work you are performing and the bevel angles you have. Prepare to adjust the bevel angles accordingly.
My overall sense of this as well as my recommendation to you is this. A-2 Steel really prefers most usually to have a 35 degree bevel ground on it for best outcomes. To go shallower than 35 degrees with your bevels is something you may find works, but please don’t have high expectations. While these angles are not good for paring, they are great for rough service, so mindfully purchase O-1 or high carbon steels for the paring tools. O-1 Is not going to hold a lasting edge is really rough service. Steepening the bevel angles will help, but it still preforms better for finer work. Asking one steel to be all things to the various woodworking tasks is not going to happen. The same is also true of the tooling itself, some things simply find it difficult to interchange. Generally Speaking, Rough service bevels are in the 35 degree range, General purpose bevel angles are in the 30 degree range, and light service or paring bevel angles will be in the 25 degree range. The steel you have may require slight adjustments, just realize your steels can not be all things to all situations and you will be well serve when reaching for the right tool for the job.

Hi Chook

I have two reviews that may interest you. The first is the initial LV bench chisels with the O1 steel: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...selReview.html

This looks at the handles and compares them with other chisels, such as the LN. There is a test of the O1 steel as well, but that is not relevant at this point.

The other review compares the PM-V11 steel with O1, A2 and White Steel. That will give you a better idea of how the LV blades would compare with the LN blades: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...sCompared.html

Bottom line: the LV handles are preferred to the LN. The PM-V11 steel far outclasses both O1 and A2.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek.

First - re the pmv11 steel - is there a range of primary and/or secondary bevels it is best suited to, like the guy I quoted was suggesting was the case for A2 and O1?

Second, having just gone back again to your blog on the marri & the chisels - if'n the mood comes upon you in the future - as someone with all O1 chisels and not having spent any real time studying their usage/performance, I for one would love to see some video to illustrate what it is like when you are successfully cutting vs where you call an endpoint (in the sense of your test), and successfully paring endgrain vs when it is no longer up to par (or pare).
(... with different chisels)

Thanks,
Paul

I have an almost complete set of the LN chisels in A2, but when it came time to fill the last remaining hole in the range I bought a Veritas 1" in the PM-V11. I've now used both extensively, and would make the following comments:

I prefer PM-V11 to A2. Sharpens very nicely on my ceramic stones, and I have yet to experience any of the minor edge chipping I've seen in A2 when dealing with very hard timbers. PM-V11 definitely has better edge retention IMHO.

By far the biggest consideration (as others have noted) is the size difference between the LN and the Veritas. You really need to check this out hands-on before making a decision. I've always felt the LN handles were a bit dainty, BUT, being a socket chisel, you can easily make your own replacement handles in a size to suit your own hands. The other benefit of a socket chisel is that you can swap out the standard handle for a long paring handle whenever required - I've found this really does give a lot more control for accurate paring. The larger size of the Veritas chisels makes them work pretty well for most applications though, and I've already come to like the size and shape of the handle.

From a QA point of view, I'd have to add that Veritas chisels make LN look rather amateurish. Several of my LN chisels required a fair bit of work to flatten the backs prior to use, while the Veritas is absolutely flat as straight out of the packet. Just put a polish on the end section with some very fine stones and you are ready to go.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Hi Derek.

First - re the pmv11 steel - is there a range of primary and/or secondary bevels it is best suited to, like the guy I quoted was suggesting was the case for A2 and O1? ......

Hi Paul

You could safely use the PM-V11 steel at 20 degrees for paring. I would not go below 25 degrees for hammer work, better still 30 degrees. That is not a limitation of PM-V11 but a limitation of all steels when hammered into hard woods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by madcraft

Chook
when you are considering what the exchange rate is doing compare this to Carbatecs pm-v11 set $571 or there abouts + freight , still seems like a saving of $200 , I seem to remember derek doing a review on the Veritas Bench chisel set a while ago might they be another option



Glenn

Hey Glenn,

Whilst I'll leave the technical talk of steel qualities to the experts, I have also noticed that Carbatec does not offer the Veritas PM-V11 chisels as a set. As such if you add the chisels togther you'll get a cumulative total of AUD601.00 for the 5 chisels (should you want/need all 5 sizes). Lee Valley offer the chisels in a set (of 5) for USD359.00 (or AUD393.00) plus postage. I had a jointer plane posted to me a little while back for around AUD90.00 from Lee Valley (as I didn't want to wait the 8 weeks plus that Carbatec were "quoting"). So even based on an over-estimation of AUD100.00 delivery cost you'll still be well ahead to order direct from Lee Valley.
This is not a deliberate crack at carbatec because I find they give excellent service per say. Their ordering system does need to be looked at however (in my opinion).

Anyway, my 2 cents worth for anyone else considering purchasing the PM-VII chisels.

Originally Posted by Ozziespur

Their ordering system does need to be looked at however (in my opinion).

Calling it a "system" is a bit rich IMHO....

The only problem with ordering these chisels direct from Veritas is that you find yourself adding a few small items to make the freight cost worthwhile, then a plane, then a.....

Of course, Veritas will have the stuff delivered to your door before Carbatec have even noticed your order is in their "system", but this has been covered on several threads before.