Thread: New Lie Nielson Back-Saw Kinked?

Originally Posted by ian

Some questions if I may ...
was the saw in its original LN packaging when it arrived in Dom's hands? or had it been repackaged. From memory, original packaging is a sealed blue plastic "rust prevention" bag, butcher's paper wrapping and a reasonably sturdy cardboard box.

leaving aside questions about availability, how did the price from Classic Hand Tools (including shipping and credit card surcharges) compare to buying from Adelaide?

Yes, original packaging. Well packaged and no signs of damage to packaging.

It cost me about $204 including shipping vs $269 here so about 25% off. If i were just buying the one saw i definitely would have bought here. But i had about $2000 worth of stuff so 25% adds up. Also shipping is then spread over a larger sum

Dom

You have brought up an interesting issue there in mentioning the saw was part of a large consignment: Two grand. Was it shipped as one package or multiple? The reason I ask is that goods over $1000 are subject to importation duty and/or GST. I was just wondering how you had got around that problem.

Good that your saw issue was resolved. Reputable companies are usually good to deal with: That's why they are reputable .

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Dom

You have brought up an interesting issue there in mentioning the saw was part of a large consignment: Two grand. Was it shipped as one package or multiple? The reason I ask is that goods over $1000 are subject to importation duty and/or GST. I was just wondering how you had got around that problem.


Paul

I can answer that question.

The real rate of even superficial checking of packages by Customs in Australia is not published, but it is miniscule. Checking of contents (and even further downstream - value) is pretty much unheard of unless there is intelligence on the consignment or some form of red flag.

Because of the unwillingness to fund any kind of effective import control, the government is trying to force companies such as Ebay and Amazon to collect taxes and duties on overseas sales. Not surprisingly, these companies have responded with a resounding "get stuffed" and threatened to zone prohibit ANY international sales to Australia if the government proceeds with the legislation.

Bottom line - so long as you don't have BOMB or DRUGS written in big red letters on the outside, you can bring pretty much whatever you like into Australia in a carton with a possibility of detection approaching zero.

Sorry. Didn't actually mean to like that post because in this case it is not the answer.

I split the order into two seperate packages each under $1000 without shipping.

Any reputable seller has to declare the real sales value of the goods on the shipping invoice. The delivery company then charges you the gst and duty (as well as admin fee) if the package is over $1000aud and this happens every time. You are unlikely to get a $1000+ package in without paying.

The recent move by the government is for all imports below $1000- value. They want the seller to collect the GST on their behalf for these smaller imports.

Originally Posted by D.W.

....I wish the ones I made or had could make the same claim!! Unfortunately, the old ones, the slot is clearly not cut that well (they are old english saws, I'd imagine they were cut by hand), and on mine, it's definitely my fault for not cutting the slot well enough.....

Exackery, DW, many (most?) old saws that have come by me had slightly crude spine slots, and if everyone reading this thread goes & takes a really critical look at a few of their backsaws, I reckon quite a few will discover they're harboring a deviant or two!

Having made a few saws myself, I think there might be a good reason why the makers of old didn't try for water-tight fits with their spines. With a loose slot, the spine is less likely to act as a fulcrum if the slot in the spine ends up a bit twisted or off-centre (I'm talking hundreths of n inch which would be more than reasonable tolerances to expect) when the bolts are tightened. If handles were banged out by the thousands, there wouldn't be room for a lot of finesse, so a bit loose was probably the go.

I've thought about whether 'tis better to cut the spine slots so the wood doesn't quite touch the metal (as when inletting rifle barrels), but haven't come up with a compelling reason why one way might be better than the other, as long as the fit is accurate. As I've gotten better at cutting the respective slots, my number of misses has diminished to near zero, so I continue to try & keep the spine slot tight - looks neater that way, if nothing else...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by DomAU

I received a response from CHT early this morning after they contacted Lie Nielsen. All were happy for me to send back the saw for a replacement. However the Lie Nielsen rep said i could fiddle with it first to see if it could be fixed with some light flexing. I played with it and made a couple of cuts and it improved markedely. Enough that i can barely notice any deviation at all and enough that it's not worth the hassle of returning it.

Very happy with Lie Nielsen and CHT for their service.

That sounds like an excellent conclusion. I'm sure you'll enjoy the saw, and I'm sure it will perform well. I'm in the same boat as you with hassle. If something is outright terrible, I'll send it back. If I can make it work, I won't. Sometimes the seller is less than honest, too (certainly not in this case). E.g., I got a norris panel plane from a seller on ebay a couple of months ago - a very late one. I paid 800 bucks US for it because the seller said it was hardly used and the metal was extremely fresh on it, and the iron unused or close. When I received it, it's clear that the plane body had been surface ground, the iron replaced with a new one and the wood has enough hand wear on it that there's no way the metal would've been so fresh nor the iron only with a hone or two on it and the original finish on the back. I am probably out $200 on it, maybe a little bit more, but it's just not worth the hassle and the plane is quite nice to use. I've got no interest in spending ten hours packing it up, arguing with the seller and scouring ads to find something similar later - it'll all even out in the end, anyway.

New tools just the same. If they come with a mark or a little something on them that will be menial down the road after they've been used for some time, I can live with it. The fact that the dealer and manufacturer endorsed your tinkering and let you know they'd take it back is a super reasonable position to take - you are afforded the chance to make it as you like with no risk.

I still have a problem with this supposition

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'm sure that the bend (well, as sure as one could be) is due to movement of the wood after manufacture. LN would have a mechanized procedure set up (their saws are too inexpensive for anything else, and the cost of returns too expensive for any other practice) and someone touches those teeth up, and I can't imagine they or someone else doesn't look down the tooth line when they do it.

At any rate, curly maple isn't particularly stable - it's decent but not great

If it affected even 1 in 200 saws, I'd expect that the issue would have surfaced here or on Sawmill creek or on Woodcentral or on another forum many times over the past 20 years.
However, I'm can't recall this problem surfacing previously, nor can I find other posts talking about this sort of damage to a new saw.

So I'm left thinking that the damage would have occurred during shipping.

I was going to post this early on, and deleted it in case it sounded too curmudgeonly. Others may want to use this if it occurs to them.

If the saw was mine, I would have contacted the seller and explained the situation, sending photos (just as you did). I would also have suggested that I try and fix it myself, if they gave permission to do so (and, as it happened, the seller suggested that you do so. Full marks to them). Like Dave, I am too impatient to send things back, especially if there is a quick fix I can do myself.

The problem is not one that I view as likely due to wood moving (just as Ian notes). I have never seen this in a saw from LN or any other new saw from another similar manufacturer. I don't dispute vintage saws which may have been stored poorly.

The problem is caused by the cheek being out-of-straight, but many things could have caused this. The most simple reason is that there is a bit of wood waste in the slot, or the slot was cut, the blade wandered very slightly, and inside there is a slight hump on one side.

The fix is to use a card scraper inside the slot to remove any debris or scrape away any high spots. Clear it out, scrape it down. It has worked for me a few times.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by ian

.....If it affected even 1 in 200 saws, I'd expect that the issue would have surfaced here or on Sawmill creek or on Woodcentral or on another forum many times over the past 20 years.
However, I'm can't recall this problem surfacing previously, nor can I find other posts talking about this sort of damage to a new saw......

Ian, from my experience with backsaws old & new, I suggest the little bend at the heel is far more common than you might think. Given the nature of wood, there's just got to be some seasonal movement, & given that not every handle is made from perfectly quartersawn stock, such movement is likely to be assymetrical. It doesn't take much twist or misalignment to produce that little end-wave, believe me! Since the vast majority of owners don't set or sharpen their own saws, I'd wager relatively few have ever sighted along their saws' toothlines, and of those who have, fewer still have probably noticed the ever so slight deviations that occur. I'll throw out my challenge again - I'll bet at least one person following this thread is harbouring a saw with a teeny little curve at the heel.

The good news is, it has no discernible effect on saw performance, which is one reason why you've never noticed it before.....

Cheers,

Sorry Derek, I hadn't read your thread before I posted. What you say makes good sense (& vindicates my assertion that there are a lot of 'little curves' out there). Cutting the blade slot & fitting the spine on a saw is always a bit fraught; as I said, a small error will translate into a little bit of blade curvature. I've learnt to cut my slots very carefully, sawing first from one side, then the other, to 'average' the slot & keep it straight, & sides as parallel as possible. Early on, I tried cutting the slots with the same slitting saws I use for the brass backs, but had less success than hand-sawing, much to my initial surprise. Unless used with great care, the (un-set) slitting blades have a habit of heating quickly & warping, which can lead to a twisted slot. Also, the small diameter saws can't manage the full depth of the slot for any but the smallest saws, so in the end I've decided sawing them by hand is the easiest & most reliable method.

I have a 'cure' if a slot does go slightly wrong, in the shape of several small saws made from scraps of saw plate - one for each gauge of plate I use (like these): handle slotting saws.jpg

These saws are toothed to cut on the pull stroke, & have no set. By gently 'sawing' down the slot, they tend to clear any errant fibres or slight bellies in the cut I've made with a conventional backsaw, without making the slot wider than desirable. I made these little saws initially to round out the back of the slot to accept the curved end of the blade, and 'discovered' their usefulness in straightening slots by accident.

Anyway, I think we can agree that it takes very little to throw a handle slot out of whack, but I still maintain that wood movement can contribute to some misalignment, too...

Cheers,